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REVIEW: Puella Magi Madoka Magica Vol. 2 Blu-Ray


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MUSAWE



Joined: 13 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:01 pm Reply with quote
[EDIT: Post erased because a certain person seems to have forgotten that he is banned from posting further in this thread. - Key]
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Juno016



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:03 pm Reply with quote
@Otaking09 (on the topic of Madoka's role--WHY is she the title character? And yet, why does she not seem so important until the very end?)

I have a feeling I know why you felt so distant to Madoka's character. But be warned... This will be long:

In story-writing, there is an accepted rule called the "Chekhov's Gun." Not all cultures/countries have the same rules in story-writing, but this one holds true for Japan, too. It says, "If there is a gun on the mantle, at some point in the story, that gun has to go off." And it basically means, "if there is an object or a main story element introduced, it should actually become important at some point in the story." It's something that the audience understands deep down must happen--and if it doesn't happen when the audience expects it to happen, it's disappointing. Usually, it's better to have that gun go off relatively close enough to its appearance, so your audience can conceptualize it without it looking like a deus ex machina. However, this time, Madoka's "gun" becomes the entire theme of the plot itself:

Madoka becoming a Magical Girl.

She's a magical girl in the opening. She's the main protagonist. Kyuubey keeps telling her that she has amazing potential as a magical girl. Everyone expects her to become a magical girl from the get-go and have her struggles while being a magical girl. I mean, when she spoiler[still hadn't become a magical girl by the end of the second episode], there were TONS of complaints from the viewers, in both Japan and overseas. People were questioning her purpose. Thus, she didn't seem like a strong character...
But hints were thrown around. In episode 3, spoiler[Mami's death showed that being a magical girl isn't all about the naked transformation scenes, or being a hero, or even about making a wish come true or fighting for the ones you love. YOU CAN ACTUALLY DIE. You better think twice before making that contract...]
And then in episode 6, the plot twist: spoiler[The little Soul Gem thing Kyuubey gave them that lets them use magic and transform and stuff? Yeah. That's not your average magical tool or character icon. IT'S THEIR SOUL. They've given up their rights to their soul. Being a magical girl is definitely looking like it holds more responsibility than anyone initially thought.]
And finally, the major plot twist in episode 8: spoiler[By becoming a magical girl, you're constantly risking not only your life... but your humanity as well. In fact, Kyuubey wants that to happen. He's making contracts exactly for that purpose. Once you make that wish, it's all over. You become the very thing you have been fighting against. And no matter what good you thought you were doing by destroying witches, it won't matter in the end because you're going to become one yourself and do the exact things you had fought to prevent.]

Now here is why Madoka is so important as a character: spoiler[By having this unrivaled potential as a magical girl, she isn't just an over-powered protagonist. The power that could turn her into the greatest hero could potentially turn her into the series' worst monster. And here is where it all makes sense. The "gun on the mantle" hasn't gone off yet, not because the creators are reluctant to make it go off, but because we now realize that this gun MUST NOT GO OFF.]

And only then do we realize what spoiler[Homura has been trying to tell them from the beginning--that Madoka must not become a magical girl.] And that's when episode 10 comes in. All the major secrets have been revealed, so it's finally time to explain the final mystery: spoiler[Why does Homura know everything she does about Madoka and Kyuubey and the rest?]

Now, this topic isn't about the finale, but to get to my point, I'll cover it in enough detail to make my point:

spoiler[I'm glad episode 10 spent its time SHOWING us Homura's backstory. It was an emotional way to connect to her character and her motives, as opposed to just telling us what happened, like they did with Kyouko. Especially since Homura was such a vital character, we needed to know why she did what she did. The episode also helped us understand several things: Homura didn't give out any of Kyuubey's secrets because in the past timelines, she tried, and it never worked. The reason she kept antagonizing everyone with cynicism was because she realized through past experiences that everyone's hope, justice, and kindness ultimately led to their downfall. And the reason she had random fits of sadness during the series was because her cold personality was a strong veil she had pulled over her true personality, which was just as pure and naive as Madoka's.
Episode 11 and 12, then, were the complete conclusion. Together, they explained why the gun was on the mantle in the first place, and then they pulled that gun off the mantle and shot it, inevitably, in the only direction that made sense. Madoka, who had been constantly strung up over whether to become a magical girl, and if she did, what kind of wish she should make, finally realized a wish worth fighting for by taking all of her new knowledge and her experiences and thinking about them in her own way. She found her purpose and jumped into it, fully aware of the consequences. And that's why she added "by my own hands" into her wish, and why she said near the end, "If that could truly be granted, even someone like me would have no reason to despair!" It was her way of using her potential to reaffirm her own personal values, as well as reaffirm the human values that every magical girl had faith in throughout history.
In the end, the only thing her wish did was save the human dignity of magical girls and the values of their wishes. However, this is exactly what the series had been about up to this point--Mami's sense of duty, Sayaka's sense of justice and denial against regret, Kyouko's re-affirmation of the values she once lost, and Homura's dedication to the person she cared about the most. As for the fact that in the new universe, Mami and Kyouko were still alive--that can be attributed to the fact that their deaths came as a result of the existence of witches (Mami was killed by one and Kyouko sacrificed herself to destroy one). Yes, they were brought back, but Sayaka's disappearance and their wryness of that fact kept the lingering darkness of the series present. The ending was certainly heartwarming, but it did not void everything up to that point. Everything up to that point was what led to this one positive change, which would not have been possible otherwise.]


Thus, taking everything I mentioned in my post as evidence, here's my point:
Madoka seemed weak as a main protagonist, but that was merely a side-effect of the fact that the gun took forever to go off. On the surface, this required her character to be how it was in order to make its point. If that's what threw you off, then so be it. For better or for worse, it betrayed your hopeful expectations, and it's completely natural to be deterred by that. But I believe the end justifies the means. The series was able to use its tools effectively to convey exactly what it intended to convey from the beginning. And that might just be the most vital thing to a story.

I hope that helps. =)
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darkhappy1



Joined: 26 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:13 pm Reply with quote
This entire conversation around Otaking ought to be moved into the actual Madoka Magica thread, because the focus has shifted towards the ending more than the episodes in this volume. I'm still going to make a response to Otaking though. (I apologize it is a late response, but I started before dinner, ate dinner, then came back and finished then.) And look, our lovely MUSAWE is back into the fray, ignoring key aspects, ideas, and events of the series to make an argument that would require me to basically summarize and quote parts of the show. I'm afraid I don't have time to do that, so I might as well ignore him.


Otaking09 wrote:
But I don't like Madoka's involvement being just that since that is pretty much her only likable action in a whole series where it was nothing passive observation.

This is understandable. It can be frustrating to see a main character not act immediately when everyone else around them is doing something, but I believe her spectator position throughout the series is essential to the theme I took from the show. (Explanation about that after the next quote.)

Quote:
The spoiler[time loop] was used too cleanly; everything went according to Homura's and Kyubey's plan EXCEPT spoiler[Madoka's wish]. For all that concise craftiness, I just found the eventual trade-off a little predictable, and a little empty because it's not like she had any choice. The message I got from her action was "life is hard. harder when you have to adapt to situations you don't deserve. but if you 'wish' hard enough you can make a difference".
3 episodes vs. the rest = cheap to me.

The message one gets from this series will sometimes be different from another person's. (It happens a lot in English class. *shrug*) What I got was spoiler["Life will always be difficult. With happiness comes pain and sadness; the world might never escape it. However, it is best to move forward with your heart and mind, to feel pain but to continue observing and thinking, so that you are wise, can make a world less dreary than it already is, and have no regrets."] I made it wordy, but you get my point? This show not about spoiler[hope by itself, but wisdom and the lack thereof that causes regret.] The discussion the mother had with Madoka about making mistakes while you're still young before you screw up big time when your older? Basic learning experiences. Unfortunately, Madoka can't make a mistake in her situation or else it'd end terribly.

Quote:

Nope. Because Tutu had rules, played by them and didn't pull any last minute during the climax that would've curve-balled our understanding of that universe. There was no info-dumping as characters are clear, honest, blunt, and directly active in the plot and fight to change the direction it goes many times.
Madoka's ending climax feels more fairy tale-wish fulfillment than any of the saddest tearjerking moments in Tutu (spoiler[Duck sacrificing her practical humanity for someone who hardly cared vs. "Wish Cure-All"]

spoiler[The rule that cannot be broken in Madoka's world is that there must be as much grief as there is happiness. I believe the world at the end continues to abide by this, even if the system is changed. (The demons are manifestations of grief.) The wish wasn't a "Cure-All," but a change that would prevent a terrifying end to the magical girls. Madoka sacrificed her place on earth for all magical girls, even though almost all of the magical girls she will save will not know her until their deaths.]

Quote:
Too little, too late. I never cared about her so this sacrifice came with too little warning and little to no respect for Madoka's standing.
Even if it is a "better" situation, that last ep treats it as if spoiler[the Lord is rising from the dead; no kyubei, no witches, no warping good intentions = victory]
If it weren't for Tatami G.'s clever, upfront, and crafty use of spoiler[time looping] then maybe I could see Madoka's ending in a better light.

The lack of care for Madoka is something I can't change, since you already experienced her character. On her standing, I can only lead you back to what I took as the theme. However, I can dispute the points in your second statement: spoiler[It is not a victory. Kyubey is still present, and instead of witches there are demons that are manifestations of grief. I don't know if there aren't any warped good intentions, but I can only guess that there still would be. Sayaka would still be in her love triangle situation that would cause her disappearance, after all. Kyoko's father would still break down, simply because she's a magical girl, and she would still be the aggressive cynic that we saw throughout the show.
Your third point, time-looping, is something I can't really address with anything other than "God I hate time leaping stories."]


Quote:
Quote:
No, she doesn't. spoiler[She alters reality, yes. However, she doesn't remove any elements from it, she only adds a single explicit rule that she herself enforces. The new reality isn't that much better than the previous one, too. Witches came about mainly from magic girls, whereas demons take form without the need for such triggers so in a way, it's worse.]
Please tell me you aren't talking about the spoiler[final few seconds of the last episode hinting the sequels = the sheer definition of shoehorning in an excuse to continue]
On that, there was literally NO WARNING for that.

That was the second half of the last episode, not the final few seconds. If you have already forgotten about spoiler[the elements introduced and explained about in the new world], then please go back and rewatch it.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:15 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
You seem to build your whole argument from the "You like it so you're wrong!" angle. Whether you like it or not, your subjective views have little bearing on objective reality no matter how much you'd like to remain unaware of the fact. So please refrain from trying to argue any further, thanks.


Man, I don't feel like getting into this, but doing that (re-stating your opposition's statements, but re-worked to backfire on them) just makes you look like an dick AND makes you look like you have no argument.

Also, Madoka may be amazing, guys, but it's not perfect, jesus christ. Some of you more ardent defenders are blowing up at the slightest critisism.
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MUSAWE



Joined: 13 Jan 2010
Posts: 34
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:15 pm Reply with quote
[EDIT: Post erased because a certain person seems to have forgotten that he is banned from posting further in this thread. - Key]

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Ferian



Joined: 10 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:23 pm Reply with quote
^ I covered spoilers by spoiler tags for a reason. Please cover the spoilers in the quotes. I've read the first part of your post and realized you are but another person who doesn't know what they're talking about yet pretends to be better than everyone else nonetheless. I have no time to spare for such people so I'm afraid you won't be getting another reply. Thank you for the brief conversation.

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MUSAWE



Joined: 13 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:23 pm Reply with quote
[EDIT: Post erased because a certain person seems to have forgotten that he is banned from posting further in this thread. - Key]

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KentaMaeba



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:24 pm Reply with quote
Juno016 wrote:
@Otaking09 (on the topic of Madoka's role--WHY is she the title character? And yet, why does she not seem so important until the very end?)
Madoka seemed weak as a main protagonist, but that was merely a side-effect of the fact that the gun took forever to go off. On the surface, this required her character to be how it was in order to make its point. If that's what threw you off, then so be it. For better or for worse, it betrayed your hopeful expectations, and it's completely natural to be deterred by that. But I believe the end justifies the means. The series was able to use its tools effectively to convey exactly what it intended to convey from the beginning. And that might just be the most vital thing to a story.


This is merely through my own plot analysis, but wouldn't Madoka fit as the Martyr character? Ok, spoiler[no one remembers her anymore, but her sacrifice was supposed to mean something - the literal "hope" for all magical girls. Henceforth, not only did she become hope itself, but an idea - the idea of what all magical girls should fight for; love, justice, and hope. And ideas are immortal - they have no form, but can never be destroyed, like Madoka as she became. And she would've never became that decision without witnessing the suffering of all the magical girls around her. In that sense, her character was not exactly weak but integral; being a helpless standby-er allowed her to witness all the suffering of magical girls so she can create hope with her own hands.]

Wow, all that sounded better in my head. Well, that's just what I think. Take it with a grain of salt.
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bhl88



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:27 pm Reply with quote
This thread will (probably) reach the first Volume review (with the arguments from Volume 1 continued in Volume 2)
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Otaking09



Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:29 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Thus, taking everything I mentioned in my post as evidence, here's my point:
Madoka seemed weak as a main protagonist, but that was merely a side-effect of the fact that the gun took forever to go off. On the surface, this required her character to be how it was in order to make its point. If that's what threw you off, then so be it. For better or for worse, it betrayed your hopeful expectations, and it's completely natural to be deterred by that. But I believe the end justifies the means. The series was able to use its tools effectively to convey exactly what it intended to convey from the beginning. And that might just be the most vital thing to a story.

I hope that helps. =)


I see...! That does help me put it into a greater perspective! Yes, this here has helped me out the MOST out of every, single post on this forum!
Y'see, my problem was how convoluted they kept making it - never really settling down. To have Madoka's "birth" be, effectively, her death and the story's end just angered me because... that is all.
But, you telling me that they wanted to take that basic convention of magical girl and exponentialize its significance by adding severe questionable, morally "grey"-weight to the whole scenario then, yes, it makes a fine eulogy to the magical girl genre in the same way Unforgiven does for westerns.

BUT... even though your explanation of the Chekhov's Gun perfectly puts the series' aims into perspective for me, here is where I drew the line. I'm gonna make a comparison, but here me out:
NGE had to change its tone to become more than a eulogy on mecha anime's extreme, humanely-taxing goal to save the world; it had to go deeper.
Madoka's genre, I guess, couldn't build enough for me to savor its depth because it was still playing by magical girl-genre rules and never sophisticated itself to apply its depth in the way that'd hurt the most.
By not letting Madoka do anything along some similar convention created confusion and detachment.

Lemme ask you a question; are there any instances where a Chekhov's Gun motif is used independently from other motifs like Madoka?
I ask this because there is one genre-throwback movie, El Topo, that plays by Western rules... first, before having to adapt its style to its deeper themes while still keeping its rules, but slightly bending their flexibility. My whole point is that we are aware of the deconstruction during the entire time; I'm angered that the creators had to explain things to fans because... doesn't that make their say necessary to understand a story that couldn't do it well enough on its own?
Relying completely on a motif is very risky because people might not have any idea what to look for or what to take heed for. Madoka's very nature relying on "magic" justifies every single twist it makes, but it could very well confuse people who don't know what/how it's eulogizing.

My understanding of its importance is certainly clearer now, and I will admit that part of the problem was my cognition, so thank you very, very, VERY much Juno.
I may not be able to see it as a masterpiece due to its convention-devotion but I will respect its popularity now and its efforts in what it does.


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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:30 pm Reply with quote
Dude, spoiler tags.
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Shenl742



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:32 pm Reply with quote
Considering PMMM is a show where the major antagonists are witches who feed on negative emotion, I can't help but find all the drama and hostility in this thread just a little ironic
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Ferian



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:36 pm Reply with quote
Shenl742 wrote:
Considering PMMM is a show where the major antagonists are witches who feed on negative emotion, I can't help but find all the drama and hostility in this thread just a little ironic
There is a slight difference in terminology, however. In the world of the Internet, witches are called "trolls". Rolling Eyes
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Juno016



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:39 pm Reply with quote
Holy crap. While I went to eat dinner and type up my last reply, something went awry here real quickly...

MUSAWE wrote:
[EDIT: Post erased because a certain person seems to have forgotten that he is banned from posting further in this thread. - Key]


As usual, I'm not going to disrespect your opinion. If something in the show didn't work for you, so be it. Madoka has just as many flaws as it has excellent writing. But that could go for anything. I've read my fair share of Russian novels, and let me tell you... I am not their intended audience. I will die of boredom if I ever have to read another 500+ page, politically engaged, award-winning, 100+ year-old Russian novel. But just because I found them to be boring and have far too much pointless dialog and debate does not mean they actually had bad writing. I just don't understand it, and that's all there is to it.

With Madoka, it's a similar issue. Pointing to the post I just made above, the series was organized with a purpose and it was able to move tons of people into understanding and believing in that purpose. It did so with execution that engaged several viewers, and I have seen my fair share of reviewers at least acknowledging that it was effective at what it tried to do.
However, because it focused on an idea, and on plot, and only had 12 episodes of screentime, it only developed its characters in a way that it could use for its idea/plot. For some, and even for many, it didn't work for them that way. "The characters are what make a story." Anyone who believes that could easily be swayed in the wrong direction because of how some of the characters are portrayed throughout the series. Character development is there, but it sometimes fails to engage its audience completely with a particular character's story, either because it lacks some kind of emotional connect or because it doesn't take the time to make the character sound more believable. That doesn't mean the character wasn't believable enough, but it does mean that somehow, it didn't convince everyone, and that can be looked at as a flaw.

Now, I'm not trying to convince you to look past the flaws in order to like what it has to offer, but I do ask that you try to acknowledge that us fans who like the series aren't simply spouting nonsense. We all have standards, and I'm willing to bet that some of our standards are pretty high, so even if you don't quite understand it, something has to be working well for us to be able to argue with such articulate detail... Well, some of us, at least.


KentaMaeba wrote:
This is merely through my own plot analysis, but wouldn't Madoka fit as the Martyr character? Ok, spoiler[no one remembers her anymore, but her sacrifice was supposed to mean something - the literal "hope" for all magical girls. Henceforth, not only did she become hope itself, but an idea - the idea of what all magical girls should fight for; love, justice, and hope. And ideas are immortal - they have no form, but can never be destroyed, like Madoka as she became. And she would've never became that decision without witnessing the suffering of all the magical girls around her. In that sense, her character was not exactly weak but integral; being a helpless standby-er allowed her to witness all the suffering of magical girls so she can create hope with her own hands.]

Wow, all that sounded better in my head. Well, that's just what I think. Take it with a grain of salt.


You're absolutely right. Somewhere in the series, I believe, one of the characters actually says that spoiler[she became "hope" itself.] If that isn't enough proof, I don't know what is. I'll have to go back and double-check, though, to make sure I'm not just making it up...

Okay... *deep breath* I'll reply to Otaking's latest post with my next post. It's hard to keep up with such a fast thread. Anime hyper[/quote]
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darkhappy1



Joined: 26 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:44 pm Reply with quote
Well, at least Otaking found his answer. Glad for you, Otaking. (I probably didn't need to make my post after all. Confused )

By the way, I found the English dub during this span of episodes better than last volume's. (It went from mediocre and slightly grating to decently done! Yay...) Sayaka was handled more expertly than I'd have thought, and the actresses have become more used to their roles. The only thing I have to complain about is Hitomi, who sounds more stilted than in Volume 1, and Homura during spoiler[her outburst]. I felt like that could've been done a little better, but that might just be the original performance's outstanding quality being hard to beat.
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