Forum - View topicChicks On Anime - Fansubs (Pt 1)
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0utf0xZer0
Posts: 80 |
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Don't forget that downloading for private use isn't even considered a crime in some countries, including Canada. (For those that don't know, Canadian courts won't allow copyright holders information on downloaders on the grounds that downloading is "fair dealing".) That's why when I argue against those who only download on moral grounds ("on ground of reciprocity, you should support creators whose work you enjoy") rather than legal grounds. Agreed that the industry is going to have to learn and adapt, though. The problem isn't going away anytime soon. Edit:
Well, I wouldn't expect MFI to let me bypass them completely, because let's face it, Xebec didn't do all the work on that show. I suspect MFI bore the financial risk and handled the IP licensing for the show. ...The amount I'd be willing to direct contribute to something like Kanokon would be fairly limited, though. Even as a hardcore "girls with animal ears" fanboy, it was one of my lower ranked shows of 2008. Last edited by 0utf0xZer0 on Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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pparker
 Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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Links? Titles? I'm not just being lazy in asking, I'm interested in any actual studies if you know of them specifically.
QFT.
The sales figures we get are incomplete and only a part of the equation anyway (E.g., merchandising sales?). Interesting from an anecdotal standpoint to see how many Macross DVDs apparently sold this week, but not of much value otherwise.
What I mean is, the industry rails against fansubs, but I have yet to see anyone come out with an actual study of the situation that backs up either side's claims. There is no arguing the legal aspect, but that's a moot point anyway because the world has moved on past the law. For me the debate centers around the net economic effect of fansubbing on the commercial anime industry. Look, I completely understand a voice actor being concerned that fansubs may be reducing the number of DVD sales and thus reducing the chance of more shows being licensed, and thus reducing their opportunities for future work and income. But what I hear are unqualified claims that this is absolutely the truth with no data to back it up. My own experience informs me that the anime industry gets a lot more money from me because of fansubbing, period. So, I can understand the concern, but my contribution is on the plus side due to fansubs, not the negative. I'm just a pragmatist with these things. No data = false claim. |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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With this in mind, what is your opinion of those who come to enjoy a given creators' work before proceeding to support them financially? My view, from a purely finantial viewpoint, is best expressed by this:
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0utf0xZer0
Posts: 80 |
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I tend to assume that there are three types of downloader-buyers: 1) Those who are risk adverse when buying media and would have bought less anime if they couldn't see it for free first. (I fit into this group) 2) Those who were already would have spent the same amount of money on anime, but now have better information to choose what shows to support. 3) Those who still buy anime, but don't feel the need to buy as much because they can get it for free. I'm very supportive of groups 1 and 2, but I think those in group 3 need to be encouraged to buy more. As for the overall impact of fansubs... I think that they're probably a drain on shows that would have been popular anyway, but have a positive impact on sales of niche titles. In all seriousness I think fansubs very well might be a drain on the industry overall, but that drain comes from group 3 and those who download only to poach. Groups 1 and 2 by definition aren't contributing to that drain. (You could argue that all downloaders, even those that do buy, contribute to the problem by encouraging fansub production, but by the same token you'd also have to say that anyone who buys alcohol contributes to drunk driving by encouraging alcohol production. At some point, you have to point the finger at the one who made the bad choice, which to me are the download to poach types.) |
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Unit 03.5-ish
Posts: 1540 Location: This space for rent |
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If someone can present a compelling statement backed up by factual, irrefutable evidence (sites, quotes, etc.) that fansubs contribute to the overall health of the industry, and if you can make an argument other than "fansubs create more fans by their very nature and widespread availability", I'd love to hear it.
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samuelp
Industry Insider
Posts: 2231 Location: San Antonio, USA |
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My personal theory based on my own observations is that fansubs DO increase the overall fanbase and exposure for any one particular series. However the aggregate effect of fansubbing on a macroscopic basis has been one in which the average anime watcher is far less likely to purchase anime to watch. For example, I have photographic evidence of a couple $1000 worth of exported merchandise that has been purchased as a direct result of fansubs for a show, that would never have been purchased otherwise, all by people who became fans of the show through those fansubs (and the show still isn't available in the english speaking world). I think that it's pretty irrefutable that for this one individual show those fansubs caused more money to end up in the hands of the Japanese creators than if they hadn't been fansubbed at all. But then for other properties you can probably show that it may have depressed eventual R1 DVDs, or at least argue for it. The worst effect is one of an aggregate sense that anime is not something that should be paid for, and is really a global force on sales going downward. I.e. a show just has to be that must better to get purchased than it used to be. |
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0utf0xZer0
Posts: 80 |
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The lack of data on the subject makes it impossible to objectively judge the overall impact of fansubs. That's why I concentrate on what can be proven: that certain uses of fansubs have certain impacts on industry. I support those with positive impacts and criticize those that don't. Going after the entire fansub community is, in my opinion, impractical and pointless, besides which eliminating it would not create as positive an outcome as if everyone became good little downloader-buyers. |
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3904 Location: CO |
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What makes you think it was successful? Just because you like a show, and you know a lot of people who like a show, doesn't mean it's commercially viable. Did you, and all the Simoun fans you know, buy the series? Can you say that everyone who liked Simoun bought the series? Just because something is licensed and gets good reviews does *not* mean it's commercially successful. One thing that many anime fans tend to forget is that much, much more people will celebrate an R1 release than will actually buy the show. |
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Unit 03.5-ish
Posts: 1540 Location: This space for rent |
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Bamboo: since this was brought up in one of my earlier posts a few pages back, what would you say, then, about MoHS coming Stateside, since it has been attributed by many to the widespread popularity of the fansubs? Just thought that would be an interesting comparison to Simoun, here.
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Cloe
Moderator
 Posts: 2728 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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For real, yo. This thread is turning into a serious clusterf*ck. The column was centered around the question "Do fansubs still have a purpose?" not "Are fansubs moral/wrong/whatever?". People should be talking fansubs' usefulness to the anime market in their posts instead of falling back to the pro vs. con, illegality vs. entitlement talking points we've all heard a million times. |
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kefkaownsall
 Posts: 189 |
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We need those numbers or else we can never end the ethics debate.
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Tofusensei
Posts: 365 |
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Or better yet.... People need to STFU and buy some anime 
-Tofu |
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Daizo
Posts: 139 |
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Since this thread is a huge pile of tl;dr, excuse me for posting something that might have been already mentioned, but here I go anyway:
It pisses me off how the article compeletely ignores something called "the rest of the world". Sure, you might be able to watch free subtitled anime episodes online legally, even here in ANN. There's just one catch - Regional content locking. ANN streams? WHOOPS CAN'T LET YOU WATCH THAT. Over half of the legal content on CrunchyRoll? Sorry, can't let you watch that. No, not even if you want to pay for it. You just can't. Hulu and the likes are compeletely closed as well. So if I basically want to watch something, this leaves me with three options: a) Wait potentially forever for streams to become available in my region b) Pirate it. c) Wait for R1 DVDs and import them. Now both option a and c can take forever. I'm normally a patient person, but even my patience has limits, which pretty much just leaves me with option b or alternatively not watching it at all. Then there's the whole deal of importing R1 DVDs. Let's start with listing something that people generally want to pay for: Convenience, speed and quality. Now let's compare importing R1 DVDs vs fansubs: Convenience - Importing R1 DVDs would require for me to have a credit card, a region-free DVD player and a NTSC-capable TV. Not very convenient. For fansubs, I need a computer and a BitTorrent client. A lot more convenient compared to the hassle of importing. Speed - Importing stuff from US to Europe takes time. If I can download the whole series in less time using BitTorrent, fansubs beat the legal means in speed as well. Quality - I don't care what anyone says, but the vobsubs that DVDs use are quite frankly ugly. Aliased three-color subtitles? No thanks, I'll rather have crisp and nice looking softsubs. What about HD material then? When we have Blu-ray rips available, why the hell would I go for official DVDs if I want quality? In short, when the illegal method beats the legal method in every aspect, it doesn't really make me want to open my wallet. If I could buy cheap (as in something along the lines of current DVD boxsets) Blu-ray boxsets from the nearest mall, I'd most likely buy a lot of my anime. Provided that they don't have non-HDCP video quality crippling, though, as my 24" 1920x1200 screen doesn't support HDCP. As I also occasionally indulge in the act of fansubbing myself as well, I mainly do it for the community in order to bring something to people they couldn't otherwise see in a language they understand. But in any case, before you go claiming that "fansubs are obsolete", remember that the world isn't limited to the United States of America. |
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Zin5ki
Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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In an attempt to address the original question, the fact that those willing to pay for anime have a means to decide which series are, from their own perspective, worth their money gives one reason why fansubs could benefit the industry in an age where legal streaming is still far from sufficient to replace them outright. But then again, such a point requires quantitative evidence to support it, and can be countered by the claim that this advantage does not outweigh the industry-harming effects. In absence of such evidence, the conversation quickly takes the form of the classic fansub ethics debate, and for my role in this becoming the case I apologise.
Earlier on in this thread, a couple of those involved in the article gave their opinions on this sort of issue. |
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Cloe
Moderator
Posts: 2728 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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This is not helpful, regardless of what side of the ethics debate you're on. Let's all try to raise the level of discourse a bit, shall we? |
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