Forum - View topicNEWS: GDH Int'l Head Condemns Illegal Anime Distribution
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Siegel Clyne
Posts: 200 |
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According to Oricon sales data, GDH's GONZO anime titles generally sell poorly in Japan. Romeo x Juliet, RED GARDEN, Burst Angel (Bakuretsu Tenshi), etc., failed to sell on DVD in Japan. Witchblade was a very mediocre seller on DVD in Japan. Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo and Pumpkin Scissors were even more mediocre sellers on DVD in Japan. Recently, only Seto no Hanayome has sold halfway decently on DVD in Japan, but with really so-so sales numbers. The decently selling on DVD in Japan Last Exile seems to be largely a dream of the past.
How would Afro Samurai do in Japan? (It has not been released there on Japanese Region 2 NTSC DVD.) In numerous animation DVD sales threads at Japan's huge 2ch forums, Japanese posters routinely ridicule GONZO for their general inability to sell their anime on DVD in Japan. Yet many recent non-GONZO anime titles - Kanon (2006), Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha A's, Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS, Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, Hayate no Gotoku! (Hayate the combat butler), Shakugan no Shana Movie, Lucky*Star, Negima!?, Ookiku Furikabutte, The Prince of Tennis: The National Tournament OVAs, ARIA The NATURAL, ARIA The OVA ~ARIETTA~, My-Otome, My-Otome Zwei, Mononoke Vol. 1: Zashiki Warashi, Rozen Maiden: Träumend, Rozen Maiden: Ouvertüre, etc. - have managed to sell well on DVD in Japan. As someone who has bought something as esoteric as Lantis's / GONZO's RED GARDEN Drama CD from CD Japan - I paid US$30 or so for it - Arthur Smith of GDH, please explain this. PS. The RED GARDEN Rock Mix Drama CD is the only one of the many Japanese drama CDs, Japanese picture book CDs, and Japanese Region 2 NTSC DVDs I have which fails to list the original Japanese voice acting cast - or in the case for original non-Japanese language films, the main Japanese dub voice acting cast - on the outside cover. Many Japanese fans believe that the Rozen Maiden anime, which is much more popular in Japan than the Rozen Maiden manga it is based on, will get a third season. It is one of a handful of anime titles guaranteed to be a surefire hit that sells on DVD in Japan. The one apparent stumbling block: the fairly well publicized conflict between Rozen Maiden manga artists PEACH-PIT and Comic BIRZ publisher Gentousha. I'm writing strictly from memory, but I seem to recall that a few weeks ago Peach-Pit noted in their blog that, after several years since Rozen Maiden began running in the magazine, Birz Comics, published by Gentousha, finally handed them fan mail for Rozen Maiden, postmarked or dated something like July 29, 2007 and later only. They seemed happy to receive and reply to the fan mail. Two more Rozen Maiden CDs are slated to be released in December 2007: 1) Rozen Maden Träumend Original Drama CD ~Christmas Hen~, on sale Friday, December 21, 2007; 2) and "Suigintou no Koyoi mo Ennu~i" ~"Bara no Kaori no Garden Party" Bangai Hen~ Web Radio Vol. 3 CD, on sale Wednesday, December 5, 2007. The Rozen Maiden series have sold well on DVD in Japan, with the limited edition of Rozen Maiden Ouvertüre being the bestselling of the DVDs. What this all means for the continuation of the Rozen Maiden manga and a third season of the Rozen Maiden anime is anyone's guess. 2007-11-12 MONDAY UPDATE Here is the PEACH-PIT blog entry regarding Rozen Maiden fan mail. Love is Over Posted by Demian @ 4:21 pm, May 31st, 2007
According to discussion on synthesis thread #5 regarding PEACH-PIT, Rozen Maiden and DearS on the Natsukashi Manga @ 2ch Keijiban (Nostalgic Manga @ 2ch Message Board), the popular Rozen Maiden anime had no impact on Rozen Maiden manga sales in Japan. The Rozen Maiden manga was not really that popular in Japan. It simply did not sell there. On the other hand, the discussion continues, two other manga works by PEACH-PIT, Shugo Chara! and ZOMBIE-LOAN, are popular in Japan and are selling in Japan. Both were popular in Japan before they were animated. Incidentally, Oricon sales data indicate that the first and second DVD volumes of the ZOMBIE-LOAN anime, limited and regular editions, have failed to sell in Japan. Apparently the opposite situation of Rozen Maiden, the ZOMBIE-LOAN manga is popular, while the ZOMBIE-LOAN anime is unpopular. PEACH-PIT, a Japanese fan observes, is busy with the Shugo Chara! and ZOMBIE-LOAN manga. Do they currently have the time and the incentive, one may ask, to continue the Rozen Manga manga? Still, many in Japan feel that because of its popularity and commercial success in Japan, the Rozen Maiden anime will get a third season. For them, it is not a question of "If?" It is a question of "When?" And... Released Saturday, November 10, 2007 in Japan, the December 2007 issue of Animage magazine, published by Tokuma Shoten, reportedly indicates that the January 2008 issue of Animage, slated to go on sale Monday, December 10, 2007 in Japan, will include as an extra gift an Animage original edition of "Gin-sama Chronicle 'Suigintou no Koyoi mo Ennu~i'" Internet radio CD. The "Suigintou mo Koyoi mo Ennu~i" ("Suigintou's 'It's Ennui Again, Tonight'") Internet radio show, hosted by none other than the silver haired, black winged doll of darkness herself, Suigintou aka Gin-sama aka Rie Tanaka, has proven itself to be a popular program - popular enough, at least, to have a third CD scheduled to go on sale in Japan. With PEACH-PIT finally receiving Rozen Maiden fan mail from Comic BIRZ and publisher Gentousha after all these years, the new Rozen Maiden ~träumend~ drama and Suigintou radio CDs going on sale in December 2007, and anime oriented Animage pushing its own CD version of the Suigintou Web radio show, a number of Japanese fans think that the Rozen Maiden manga may start up again (somewhere), and that the much more popular Rozen Maiden anime will get a third season. Only time will tell. Last edited by Siegel Clyne on Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:37 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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Sakurachan1
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I totally agree, but why not take your argument one step further. I think the biggest issue here is turn around time from the original broadcast in Japan, and domestic release in the US. I remember being in Rome back in 2003 and watching episode of Saiyuki that were about a year away in the US. These episodes had already been LGALLY dubbed & subbed in Italian, and the LEGAL DVD set was already on shelves there. Notice I said DVD set and not toggled individual dvds. Rewind to Paris circa 1998-1999- DBZ GT & Kenshin were huge hits on Parisian TV. Kenshin was about midway through while I was there in 1999 and DBZ & GT were on their second & third run. Again these were LEGAL broadcasts, Anime ran right before and right after shows like Highlander The Raven etc… So I think it’s safe to argue that the biggest ENEMY to the success of some Anime series domestically is NOT fansubbers or China town, it’s Turn around time. What I want more than anything else as a fan is quality, fast turn around, and on-demand access to new shows. I don’t want to wait two years for a show to come out here, and I don’t want excuses about the time it takes to prep for domestic release, because it insults my intelligence. Sure the fansubers are evil –why – because they let the cat out of the bag, fans now know that it doesn’t take a month to translate 1 episode. If you are a fan that buys into the Anime industries mantra, about rogue cells of bootleggers in China hurting their bottom line, then good for you. DBZ is one of the best selling series of all time, and they are still milking it despite the availability of sub-par bootlegs. Sure Anime sales in the US were sluggish last year, but not because of Youtube or Bittorrent. Sales were sluggish because the majority of the series that were picked up stunk! And guess what, most of those shows were produced by Gonzo. If things keep going the way they are going and the industry heads in Japan realize once and for all that what fans want is on-demand access to current shows along with timely DVD releases that don’t have to include dubs to sell, then a LOT of folks will be out of a gig. The Japanese are all about profit, once they see they can make a profit by cutting out the middle man and dealing directly with the fans then… you figure it out |
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xstylus
Posts: 263 |
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So Gonzo pulled an Almighty and said "Let there be Hellsing," and lo it was so, right? No resources used to create it? No money spent for the animators, directors, producers, actors, and such? How are they supposed to recoup that? If anime cost pennies to make, then it would sell for pennies. Profit to recoup that investment cannot be made at $2 an episode on sales of less than 20,000 per, unless you want to settle for scooby-doo quality animation outsourced to China.
Then here we are. You can't give concrete proof that your theory is right, and we can't give you proof that satisfies you. I know I've personally quoted concrete data to you before, but you still called it too vague. You have a point of logical vulnerability roughly comparable to the tobacco industry's opinions on cigarette addiction.
There's a little concept called "demand". It relies on something called "choice" and "consequence". In order for demand to work, it must function like this: Choice: I don't want it. I have better things to spend my money on. Consequence: Too bad. no video for you. Ever. Scenario: I have a spare $20 floating around, the previews look good, and my friends say it's great. I've changed my mind. I'll buy it. Consequence: Thank you! Sales have been good, so we'll be making a sequel soon! Choice: Hmm. Perhaps I'll buy that too. Your logic is this: Choice: I don't want it. I have better things to spend my money on. Consequence: Well, since you weren't going to buy it, here you go anyway. Choice: Oh, okay! Then I'll take the sequels too. Consequence: Sorry, sales were poor. We couldn't afford to make them. I'd love to live a life without consequences! I could rob a bank, and there'd be no consequence of going to jail! I could pork your girlfriend while you watch (pass the whipped cream please), and there'd be no consequence of you beating the snot out of me! Isn't that great? Wait, nevermind. I'd never rob a bank, that'd be wrong. I wouldn't do your girlfriend either, you'd probably be upset. So I guess that means the bank should give me all their money anyway because I'm such an honest guy, and your girlfriend should come over and show me a good time because I'm so noble in not wanting her man to be upset with her. Does that make sense? No? Good, because it doesn't make sense to me either, but that's effectively what you're saying! Life has to have consequences. It doesn't MATTER if they were never going to buy it. That's the consequence of choosing not to buy something. Take away that consequence, and you diminish product demand. If you diminish demand, you affect the value at which your product is worth, making it harder to get a return on your investment.
I live with two of them. They're my roommates, we're all college age (not broke teenagers) and have decently paying jobs. They download fansubs galore, nevermind the fact that I've got a DVD collection that rivals a video store's selection which is at their disposal. They think I'm an idiot for "wasting my money" on so many DVDs. I've obviously razzed them about it on more than a few occassions, and they have flat out told me "I don't care." Hmm... now that I think about it, I wonder how many of my DVDs they've quietly copied for their friends. Cripes.
Well, right now they pretty much have no choice but to find some other way of making money other than through sales. Downloading isn't going away, no matter how much more visible their wounds become. Whether you choose to believe me or not, I'm certain that it will (not might) destroy the industry. If it lives on, it will forever be a shadow of what it was. You can not compete with free (advertising only goes so far). My only wish is that the assassins take responsibility for their actions, a wish which I know is a tall one. If it were all down to one company and it died tomorrow, downloaders would still point blame at the industry who, for decades, had always tried their damnedest to give its fans everything it wanted -- except for free.
1) Promotional benefit? Sure. Fansubs have always been instrumental in promoting anime. Early fansubbing was kept in check by technical limitations then. Not so anymore. Downloadable anime is the problem, just to be clear. It's created situations where you've got 10+ fans per one purchaser. Sorry, I'm using speculative numbers again, but it doesn't matter, the correct ratio is supposed to be closer to one fan per one purchaser. 2) Let's be honest here, laws won't do a damned thing. You could make downloading as stiff a crime as buying crack, it won't change much except fill jails. 3) We can agree on this. If the companies attack the fans, they become the next RIAA, and what goodwill the anime companies have fostered over the years is destroyed. I know I'd turn spiteful against the anime industry if they enacted RIAA tactics, and what feeble sales they have left would surely plummet to nil. So basically, they're in a no-win scenario. Last edited by xstylus on Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mohawk52
Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Unholy_Nny
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Calling me childish is childish =) I never said anything about your buying habits, just that "alot" is that. Which means (in this context) a large number. I'm opposing that view by saying it's actually a small number, and that saying it's a large number is a lie. |
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DigimonTamer
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I know this is off-topic, but your post is the best post in this thread. I am a huge HUGE fan of Rozen Maiden and after all the unfortunate stuff that has happened over the last year I thought the franchise was dead. Your post has given me hope that it will indeed continue. YAY!!! |
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teh*darkness
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Wow, so here again we just had someone pop up and say, "Because I love anime so much that I must see the show before it's released in my country, that if they stop me from seeing it before it's released in my country, I'll stop buying what I love."
This so completely confuses me... if you like it, why stop buying it? Just rent it first... I have a friend who does this. He has netflix, and he rents the entire series as it comes out. If he likes it, he'll buy it, either singles or a boxset, whatever is available at the time. The argument that fansub viewers don't buy is probably rather accurate. I'm on IRC a lot, and the majority of people on there balk at me when I tell them I have almost 700 DVDs. Their response is, "Why buy something you can get for free?" My response, "So you can keep getting new stuff for free?" Just kidding. But seriously, there are people, like myself, who bought anime for YEARS before we ever heard of, or saw, fansubs. And if they go away, I'll continue to buy the DVDs, because anime is my hobby. I watch very few fansubs, and I'm in the process right now of actually sampling the new series, and I'll probably end up dropping a lot of them, because unlike a lot of teenagers, I don't have 6-10 hours a day to sit on my ass and watch fansubs. I will actually preview a show to see if I like it. If I do, then I'll buy it when it comes out. If I don't like it, then I stop watching it. If I don't like it enough to buy it, why should I get the enjoyment of watching the whole series... and even some series that I do like I'll not watch the fansubs, because I want to watch DVD quality, and if the dub is decent and accurate, then I may watch that, as well. Then there are some, like the recent Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. Everyone was all over this for the longest time, but I was ignoring it, and had no plans to buy it after hearing about it's licensing. But so many of my friends raved about how good it was that I finally checked it out. I wound up watching the whole series in less than two weeks, and am greatly anticipating the DVD release so that I can own it. Because anime is my hobby, and I like to support my hobby. |
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Tyrenol
Posts: 398 Location: Northern California |
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Not that guys like him aren't making a serious argument about it... But I'll say it again if I didn't say it before.
The Japanese Anime Industry should quit making so much moe garbage. Stop making shows that feature weak or non-existant male leads. A nice-looking guy of high school should block an incoming attack and counter (regardless of what gender attacks him); less the show he's in becomes redundant and unwatchable. Then, we'll talk and consider titles worth putting money on. |
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Xanas
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1) I contest that I have a problem with him because he's in a position of authority. I would say my problem with him is his bias due to being in a position of authority that is non-neutral. In other words he has strong reason to have a bias. If we were talking about an expert who had no interest one way or another (sadly doesn't exist) then I'd think you weren't going too far with that. 2) I think the word "lazy" here is very odd, because it appears to be saying that we should somehow prove that we are right. Sadly, we have no way to prove the rightness or wrongness. We have no access to the data or figures in order to approach any kind of a conclusion. We have no information available on which to get an idea of what the trends are. The only thing we can declare is our own anecdotes on one side or another. You have a few, but I think we have more. I honestly have seen more in this forum declare that they buy dvds and watch fansubs than say "I refuse because I can get it free." Even if I were to go to a more fansub-friendly haven I imagine I'd get more anecdotes on our side. Anecdotes can also not be used to develop solid 100% conclusive positions. But when the anecdotes around me are balanced more towards the position that fansubs are not an issue, I'm inclined to question contrary conclusions that aren't giving me data or anecdotes. |
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bayoab
Posts: 831 |
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Given that we have no time line for the 15%/30% drop figure, it is impossible to say. If it was measured around the week of a Harry Potter release, I'd say the inflow has been diverted. Obviously it is measured over a long period of time, but the question is what else has happened during that time. Also, why are regular DVDs dropping 15%? Might it be the same thing that is causing anime DVDs to drop an addtional 18% like an anime related game? Last edited by bayoab on Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:33 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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xstylus
Posts: 263 |
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No more Haibane Renmei. No more Lain. No more Kino's Journey, Princess Tutu, Someday's Dreamers, Human Crossing, Figure 17, Steamboy, Planetes, Escaflowne, even Evangelion started out as a very experimental title. It would not have gotten off the ground in today's market. People complain that Hollywood is artistically bereft of anything intelligent. You, sir, are asking anime to become the same thing. I got into anime because it was different. They didn't play it safe, they were trying to be creative. It was everything you couldn't find in America, and now we're Americanizing it. How disgusting.
I'd like to see one of the anime companies try a "name your price" promotion for a four episode (or two hour) show just to see how many would "buy" and what the average sale price would be. However, I can tell you right now it wouldn't be anywhere near 450,000 units, and at $6 per person, there'd need to be at least triple the number of sales than it would have gotten if it had been retailed on DVD.
Have you been to a Best Buy lately? An average CD is between $13.99 to $18.99. Overpriced, I'll agree, but the only $9 CDs are garbage bin bargains. Also, I think Radiohead's "success" is because it was the first time it was ever done, and they got a lot of press for it. Everybody flocked over to see what it was about. That is the cap that marketing model will ever hit. If it became commonplace, that number would diminish sharply.
$50 million? Heh... if all the companies combined pooled their money together they still wouldn't be able to afford that. Drop two zeros. Last edited by xstylus on Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:36 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Mohawk52
Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Tyrenol
Posts: 398 Location: Northern California |
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Because it seems that I'm all alone in my argument. Apparently, "animated forms of mean spiritedness" is not only popular; it's a requirement. |
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Fallout2man
Posts: 274 Location: San Diego, CA |
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I compare what was said to the RIAA because it was almost the exact same thing. Blaming losses on piracy without being able to prove anything. It sounds almost exactly the same with just a few minor changes due to the mediums involved. Secondly, appeal to authority is very valid in this case. You can't be an authority on magical numbers one has no way of predicting. Why assume it's a lie? He might believe it, but it doesn't change the fact that he's got no way of proving anything. All he has at best are correlations and those mean nothing. Yet his speech comes off as him trying to take a hard-line stance on an issue he feels is so serious and dire, an issue he has no facts to back up his position on. I sure think that's some grounds for suspicion right there honestly. |
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W-General
Posts: 280 Location: Ithaca, NY, USA / Taichung, Taiwan |
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Off topic: Tomoya from Clannad seems to fit you requirement. I've seen him dodge a dictionary thrown at him many times. (Sunohara, however, always seems to get beat up) |
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