Forum - View topicEvangelion - thoughts and discussions.
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kamiboy
 Posts: 570 Location: CA |
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Not to mention that spoiler[ it seems to be liquid gushing forth from the giant Lilith nailed to the cross in the terminal dogma. In fact the entire lake surrounding Lilith seems to be made of LCL.]
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littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Anyone have any opinion about how Anno handled the bible legends such as Lilith and the Angels. I thought it was all brillant, and at the time had really no idea who Lilth was untill Eva inspired me to look it up. Poor woman got such a bad rep. The angels I knew stuff about ahead of time due to Angel Sanctuary.
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kamiboy
Posts: 570 Location: CA |
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Well, I have done a little research on Lillith. What I found was that there is an old legend about Lillith rather than Eve being Adam's first wife. She was created from the same mud as Adam and so she refused to subdue to him (in another version she refused to be at the bottom when they had sex). So she left Adam and later hooked up with Kain or Abel (whoever kills the other) and spawned all demons. Later god created a more “suitable” wife for Adam from his rib. Seeing as how Kaoru refers to humans as Lillim it would seem that humans are one of these demons, maybe? Interestingly the same thing happens between Gendo and Rei III when she near the end of the movie refuses to be his doll anymore. About all that is told to us about her in the show is that humans (Lillim) originate from her. And also that there is a link between Rei and Lillith, many suggest that she has her DNA and/or soul within her. Furthermore there are hints about a connection between Lillith and at least EVA01. In the movie SEELE refers to EVA01 as the only true offspring of Lillith, or was that Adam? Actually Lillith gets a lot more attention in the movie than she does in the show, what with the whole egg of Lillith thing and all. There are some other legends about Lillith out there somewhere but I don’t remember them now. Personally I’m much more interested in the role of Adam (the giant of light) in the show. We get to know even less about him, just that he appears at Antarctica around year 2000 (why?). That human tampering with him causes second impact (why?) and the Evangelions are somehow based off of him. Oh and I almost forgot, the Angels seek to join with him for an unknown reason and them doing so will cause third impact. Though there is a plot hole here regarding the Angels wanting to join with Adam. Seeing as how they all, except two, either directly or indirectly attack Tokyo-3 one must assume that what they seek is located there. But Adam wasn’t brought there before episode 8 by Kaji. So the first few Angels attacked Tokyo-3 in vain? Or maybe what they seek was Lillith and not Adam? But that can’t be true since in episode 8 we have the fish angel attacking the UN fleet who is transporting Adam. And on the note of angels, some of the angel names in the show are based on actual angels and their attributes. Other than that Anno doesn't really touch upon what Lillith exaxtly is or where she is from in the show at all. Last edited by kamiboy on Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:06 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Aaron White
Old Regular
Posts: 1365 Location: Birmingham, Alabama |
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Lilith by George Macdonald is a cool novel about, you guessed it, Lilith. And stuff.
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Swordfish_II
 Posts: 617 |
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Couldn't the angels be seeking the EVAs? spoiler[It just seems the Kaji thinks the Angel is after Adam, but maybe it was really after Unit-02. Its my understanding that Third Impact will occur when either an Angel or an EVA fused with Adam and Lillith. But it seems that would mean Lillith is actually the first Angel and Adam was the first one discovered. Maybe if they explained where Lillith came from and how she came to be crucified in Terminal Dogma, everything would come together.] |
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kamiboy
Posts: 570 Location: CA |
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I just realised another parallel between the "I'm not your doll" scene in the movie and the myth of Lillith. spoiler[In the movie Rei is the alter ego of Lillith and Gendo has the embryo of Adam embedded into his hand. Also the thing that gendo does to her just before she rejects him has somewhat sexual overtones.]
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kamiboy
Posts: 570 Location: CA |
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I think the reason why Anno made Shinji so whiny and wimpy was because he put a lot of himself into the character. Not knowing much about Anno, since there is not much information to be found on the man, I can't be sure. But I do believe that his own feeling of inadequacy and uselessness during his depression is reflected in the character of Shinji. Also I'm pretty sure he had some issues with his father and just about every woman he ever knew in his life.
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radicaledward
 Posts: 776 |
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Awile back I ran across a new anime magazine (Anime play?) that had a Japanese documentray(?) on Anno and I got the impression that he was a very reserved individual, and the impression that you get at one point is that he is also easily distracted by stuff. So yes, I could see him drawling alittle be of himself into Shinji.
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space clam
Posts: 636 |
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As a fairly well-educated Christian I doubt it would have been much better if you were a Christian. You would recognize more of the symbolism, but then you would recognize that it's totally misplaced (in other words, it has little to do with the symbolism's true meaning and some border on sacreligious) As far as the Lillith myth is concerned, it's just that. A myth. Nowhere in the Bible will you find anything of the sort. The story has absolutely no basis from the Bible, so I see no reason to believe it. I believe most of the information of the Angels, particularly the names, came from a book (maybe Enoch) of the Apocrypha. The Apocrypha was a set of religious writings that did not meet the requirements of the first canon of the Bible. I believe the Roman Catholics (primarily) accepted them in a second canon. Oh yeah, demons are actually fallen angels that were cast out of Heaven along with Lucifer at some point in history. *The information I write is actually in the Bible, which is what I base my arguments and faith on.* |
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kamiboy
Posts: 570 Location: CA |
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You are right that some of the things actually used from the bible are taken out of context and that the Lillith myth is nowhere to be found in the bible. I mean the real lance of Longinus (not sure about the spelling) probably looked nothing like the one in the series. But in my opinion the myth of Lillith could as well as have been included in the bible. The parts of the Old Testament are brought over from Jewish religion. And those writings are based on very old sources and no doubt existed in many versions at the time they were written down. Also the bible is composed of different books written by different people at different times. My memory of this is a little bit rusty but I believe that a couple of centuries after the death of Christ some people (I'm not sure who) got together and decided to pick out some of the religious writings of the time and compile the official Christian bible. I can't really comment on the logic they based their decisions on, but if they had decided differently the bible might have looked very different. It might even have had included the myth of Lillith. In the end we should not forget that the creators of the show themselves said that the only reason they chose to include Christian mythology in the show was because they though it would be cool. And also since the Japanese people don't know much about Christianity it would have appeared mysterious and enigmatic to them. I believe I read in an interview the creators saying that if they knew that Evangelion would become so big outside of Japan they might have reconsidered the use of Christianity. In the end they didn’t really use that much from Christianity, or at least not in the original television show. If memory serves me right the only things used from the bible where, some of the angel names, Adam, the crosses, the lance of Longinus and a mention of the room of Gaff (not sure about the spelling). They didn’t intent to use these thing from the bible in a realistic context, rather they just utilised what they needed in the way they needed it. It was just a tool people; I don’t understand how anyone can be offended by it since it wasn’t intentional blasphemy. But I guess religion is a rather touchy subject for many. |
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kamiboy
Posts: 570 Location: CA |
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As far as the movie is concerned, I believe that it is heavily inspired by revelations (The one with the apocalypse). I leave it up to you to figure out which parts.
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littlegreenwolf
Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I have given up trying to think about that movie and understand it. x.x |
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kamiboy
Posts: 570 Location: CA |
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I too have long given up on trying to fully understand the main story of the television show and the movie. But I still enjoy them to a high degree and think about them often. I just keep discovering new things, there is a kind of genius behind the madness of plot holes and unexplained events. My favourite show by far. |
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space clam
Posts: 636 |
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They based their decisions on whether or not the writings were inspired of God. The books all had to contain a "scarlet thread of salvation" in them; that is, they all had to have the common theme of God's plan of salvation through Jesus. That was the first canon of the Bible. It was chosen like this because (you are right) the Bible was written by 44 different authors over a period of about 1600 years. There definitely were religious writings, especially Jewish history/legend/myths. Much of the New Testament contains letters written by Paul to various churches and people. However, these weren't the only letters he wrote; just the ones with the most pertinence, if you will.
Not exactly. There is very little (if any) you could tie to Revelation. (other than the ending of the world)
Yes. But it is said there is a fine line between genius and insanity. I guess it's up to each person to decide if Anno's melon is OK. |
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kamiboy
Posts: 570 Location: CA |
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Ok, ok! So it my not be "heavily" inspired by revelations. But I do believe that there are at least a couple of parallels to be found. If I had a copy of the bible and watched the movie again I could probably give you some examples. It was a long time ago that I read revelations and saw the movie but I can remember one possible parallel. In revelations there is mention of the beast and the whore of Babylon. The beast is described as having seven heads (or horns) and 12 crowns (I think). I can't recall the number of members in SELEE, but if they match the horns or the crowns one could suggest that Gendo Ikari is the beast. The whore of Babylon, I think, might be Ritsuko as according to revelations she is betrayed and destroyed by the beast. Or maybe I’m just reaching. Moving away from the movie and unto the show a parallel can be drawn between the second impact and the beginning of the apocalypse according to revelations. I believe that revelations mentions something like fire falling from the sky and cause the death of a certain percentage of humanity. The false story about a meteor hitting the South Pole and causing mass extinction certainly sounds like that. |
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