Forum - View topicToradora! (TV).
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Riddley
 Posts: 536 Location: Ireland |
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Personally I felt they were dependent on each other. Taiga was a very strong personality who pushed Ryuuji. Without her, he would have kept on being that scarey ass kid with the delinquent eyes kinda thing.
Plus he needed someone to care for other than his mother. I think they complimented each other beautifully. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18213 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I agree with Riddley's assessment. By the end of the series they were bordering on outright codependency.
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13230 |
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Maybe I'm simply not remembering something, but how are they codependant, exactly? What does Taiga have to offer Ryuuji? Sure she gave him that push at the start and his life did get considerably better because of it. But after that... then what?
... Well I suppose he would need a total slob to fuel his OCD. Or he could actually be a lolicon and Taiga is perfect for that fantasy without being illegal. |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3889 Location: New York state. |
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Having seen the entire show when it aired and not getting why folks like it so much, I felt the ending was a bit of a cop-out. All the buildup in the dynamic between Taiga and Ryuji to be meddlers in their love affairs and instead, spoiler[they fall in love with one another like any other rom-com pulling the "opposites attract" approach and their interests pull the tiresome "sacrifice our feelings for our beloved" cliche.]
I guess what I don't understand is why so many people frolic onto Toradora when it's pretty much a typical rom-com that doesn't offer any new twists to the cliches and dynamics you would typically find of the genre. I'm not saying it's bad per say. But I wouldn't consider it memorable or sticking out too strongly in the realm of past romance titles I've seen like His and Her Circumstances and Kimagure Orange Road that offered unique and different spins to the romantic comedy genre. |
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Saffire
 Posts: 1256 Location: Iowa, USA |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18213 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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spoiler[They're not opposites, though, beyond Ryuji being a neat freak and Taiga being a slob. In fact, the series establishes very early on that they have a lot in common, such as having troubled family situations that force them to be very independent and suffering from being perceived in a negative light by their peers for reasons partly or completely beyond their control.]
First off, it's "per se," not "per say." (Sorry, but this is a long-standing pet peeve of mine.) As to your actual main point, the execution is what turns fairly typical content into an A-/A grade series. (Or at least that's the grades that I gave it in my reviews.) The dialog is much sharper, and the characters more fully-realized, than 98% of all other series of its type and it far more commonly plays seriously; in fact, I would classify this one more as a dramedy rather than a true romantic comedy. It takes angles on some of its scenes and characters that other series normally don't and is fairly bold in the direction it goes in its late stages. It also features terrific voice acting and uniformly great theme songs. Hmmm. All of this is reminding me that it's been quite a while since I've marathoned this one. I'll have to put it next in my rotation. |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3889 Location: New York state. |
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The fact that unlike many romance titles where they build up until the couple comes together, His and Her Circumstances explores the main couple's romantic developments when they actually do become a couple. Granted it has its bumps in quality such as Yukino's sisters whoring screen time for recaps, ending in the middle of a story arc and the animation quality taking a hit in later episodes thanks to Gainax having budget issues like several of their 90s works. But it did enough to stick out for me unlike many romance titles I've seen in recent years.
If you were around in the 2000s, fans were around when Animeigo did their DVD releases of the series. But yeah, I digress. There are anime fans seem to care more for what was made in the past several years than in past decades, which is kind of ignorant and a shame. 
Personality wise though, Taiga still has all the traits of a tsundere and Ryuji the "nice guy" archetype and their different backgrounds and circumstances (Taiga being from a wealthy family and misbehaving, Ryuji coming from a lower class and misunderstood for appearance) still have them being what I would consider opposites. Granted they get more fleshing out and background than you would find from anything like, say, Love Hina or Kimikiss. But the series is still sticking with a mostly typical mold.
How so? The characters mostly have some sort of archetype they follow. Outside of what I mentioned with Taiga and Ryuji, Ami plays the two-faced popular gal, Minori the energetic ditz, Yusaku the clueless love interest and Yasuko the carefree and irresponsible parent. They don't behave any differently than what I've seen from romance titles that stick with the typical mold.
I wouldn't call milking the spoiler["sacrifice our feelings for our loved ones" cliche] in the final episodes of the series bold nor sticking to anything different from the norm. I'll admit the whole love meddling premise got my attention at first with the show. But when the series decided it was gonna put Ryuji and Taiga together, then I felt like I wasted my time and realized I should have seen this coming from a mile away considering they were the main characters of the show. Other issues I could pick apart with the later episodes are that it gets a wee bit too angsty at points and it seemed like Yusaku, who was a prominent character for earlier episodes from the love meddling plot, got shafted in focus so the series could deal with Ryuji's love woes instead. Would I call Toradora a decent series? Sure. Do I think it is A/ A- material? Not so much as it doesn't break or twist the mold in any way for me and my attachment to the characters varied at points throughout the series. Don't take this the wrong way Key, but there are times I think you may be a wee bit too lenient with how you review titles, especially with your recent Qwaser of Stigmata review. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18213 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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The underlined part has been a fairly common comment over the years. I don't let it bother me much because it's not like I'm giving out wanton free passes and not every reviewer can (or should) be a cynical ball-buster when it comes to evaluating titles. In this case, though, I know I'm far from alone in holding Toradora! in high regard; fellow ANN reviewer Carl also placed on his Best of 2010 list, for instance, and made pretty much the same observations about it that I did. (And let's keep in mind that 2010 saw more high-quality anime series releases in the States than probably any other year in the past decade.) As to your more specific comments about Toradora!, you're either dodging or missing the most important factors I mentioned. The character archetypes are standard, yes, but the way they're developed are not. The dialog and how the characters express themselves in certain situations is what sets this series apart; no romcom that I've seen has a scene like the famous post-kicking scene in episode 2, for instance. There's been an awful lot of heated discussion about how the series handles its last few episodes, so I know it doesn't work for everyone, but I bought into what the series was doing there, too. And as for Qwaser, well, I'll freely admit that a certain fun factor in that one might be jacking up my evaluation a bit, but I'm going to give props to a series which successfully pulls off mixing super-powered action and super-heavy, super-nasty fan service without making either one seem like it's just an add-on to the other. (In Queen's Blade, for instance, the action was often just an afterthought to the fan service.) |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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I agree that the series did do things differently and that's what I really liked about it... But there kind of lies the problem. After being so refreshing for most of the series they ended up going for the most predictable and boring conclusion. That alone would have been annoying, but acceptable, except that they screwed it up.
What would have made the series truely stand out? If Taiga and Ryuuji didn't get together. I liked how they had no romantic tension between them and they were friends working for a common goal. I wanted them to achieve those goals they were working so hard towards, but of course that didn't happen. I still remember that scene at the beach house, where Taiga and Ryuuji are hanging out alone together and Taiga mentions just how comfortable she is being with him like that. It was great seeing an anime finally recognise that guys and girls can be just really close friends without anything romantic between them. But of course we can't have the main hero and heroine not end up together! That's unthinkable! So they tossed all that out the window. I'm still waiting for a show were the two main characters are just friends with separate love interests. At the very start of the show I knew it would end up that way. Like I said, it's painfully predictable. But I still held onto the hope that maybe they'd continue doing things differently and it won't spoil that fresh feeling. I really should have known better. To elaborate on my "screwed it up" comment, I've gone at length about it before but I had no problem with Taiga's end of things. Her falling out of love with Kitamura and in love with Ryuuji was gradual and believable. But then there's Ryuuji who never showed any sort of growing romantic interest in Taiga. At least none that I saw and it's not like I wasn't paying attention. I mean, when he heard Taiga's confession on the mountain he reacted negatively to it. You'd think if he had feelings for her at that point he'd have a different reaction other than "pretend it didn't happen." So after Taiga runs out of the classroom and Ryuuji and Minori give chase, Minori shouting her feelings for Ryuuji, the way he was all like "Yeah I got over you like 2 minutes ago" and suddenly he was all about Taiga felt like a total ass pull to me and flipped the bird to all the carefully built up elements of the rest of the show. Others have voiced a difference in perspective and that's fine. Maybe I'd pick up on all the hints I supposedly missed if I rewatched the show, but I really have no desire to do so. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18213 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I'll look for those signs of Ryuji's changing feelings (it's very gradual IIRC) when I rewatch the series and record them so I can report on it at some future date. Given the review content I have to do right now, though, I probably won't get to that for a month or so.
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6532 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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Let me turn the question around, Vaisaga.
Precisely what acts of kindness does Ryuji perform for Minorin? Answer: virtually none. In contrast the list of loving things he does for Taiga seems boundless, right from the first episode. My thesis is that Ryuji never loved Minorin in the first place. Rather, he has convinced himself that he is in love with her to cover his lack of self-esteem and, later, to cover his fear of attachment to Taiga. I believe that he first began to love Taiga when he saw her asleep in the first episode. Similarly, I also believe that Taiga comes to love Ryuji in return shortly afterwards – in the sequence involving the cookies, the lamp post and the confession. For the first time in her life, she has someone with whom she can communicate and someone who does things for her. So, Toradora! is not a romcom about two unlikely people who come to love each other over 25 episodes. It’s an, at times comic, observation of two people who love each other from the get go but, because of their immaturity and their fear of failure, lie to themselves about their feelings. Both use a dishonest cover of a false romantic desire to avoid facing up to reality. In short, the two need to grow up. The anime is the tale of how they grow up. If Toradora! were a simple moe romcom the climax would come when the two acknowledge their love and we, the viewers, find their love believable. In Toradora! we must be convinced they have grown up, and that is the nub of the last two episodes. Witnessing their own parents’ immaturity, they realise that running away is not a solution to their problems. What’s more, it’s precisely what they’ve being doing all along. Their separate decisions to reconnect with their dysfunctional parents are the proof that they have made those important steps. In many moe or romcom anime the protagonists remain resolutely adolescent. Toradora! stands out for me because the protagonists move out of that comfortable space. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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This doesn't really have much to do with anything. Ryuuji is nice to everyone, he just appears to be more so towards Taiga because... Well, she needs it more. I'm sure if Minori was a total slob who lived alone, Ryuuji would help her out more too. In the first place Ryuuji was in love with Minori because she was the only girl who treated him nicely and wasn't afraid because of his looks. Taiga is basically the same (minus the 'treating him nicely' part) so how exactly is Ryuuji being in love with Taiga more 'grown up'? And I'll ask again, why couldn't Taiga and Ryuuji just have been close friends? |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18213 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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errinundra mostly addressed that (and I like how she put it, incidentally, and I will keep that viewpoint in mind when I rewatch it). Although this wasn't obvious when people were first commenting on the series episode-by-episode, in retrospect this is a story about what's a crush vs. what's love. Taiga and Ryuuji ultimately hooking up is necessary to complete that comparison; neither one of them ever really had more than a crush on the other's best friend. I'll acknowledge that it would have been interesting to see it go in another direction, and you're not the only person who was vocally disappointed about the two of them hooking up. However, I'm not at all convinced that it would have been a better story had it gone that way, as it would have prevented some of the other issues involved from getting resolved. |
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Spastic Minnow
 Bargain HunterExempt from Grammar Rules  Posts: 4613 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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Ryuuji isn't just nice to Taiga, he goes above and beyond for her time and time again but he practically has to be forced to engage Minori, not just because he's bashful but because he's just not invested in it.
I'd go further into it, but I have to go now. But really, that should be obvious. |
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Riddley
Posts: 536 Location: Ireland |
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This.. I actually thought this was obvious and am very surprised that it seems this is only being discussed now. It was so obvious in my mind that I never made it a point to dig up the Toradora thread because I figured I'd have nothing to add... Mmm won't make that mistake again. And as for the boy & girl only being friends and not romantic discussion, that is one of my pet peeves. It's incredibly naive to think this way. It shows a complete ignorance of how relationships work. A man and woman having a plutonic relationship is an impossible reality unless 1.) there are no romantic or sexual feelings between the two, and 2.) they are able to maintain a friendly distance that insures point 1.) doesn't develop. In Toradora!, Taiga and Ryuuji have all the characteristics of good heroes. And they must in order for the story to work. If they didn't, the story wouldn't work for so many people. The characters have to be people the readers/viewers can identify with and develop their own feelings towards in order for them to care about the characters. So in the end, the fact that both Taiga and Ryuuji are likeable, loveable main characters leads to them having romantic feelings for each other. This is natural and a dynamic which would happen in real life too. If the girl you're friends with also happens to be attractive to you, you will develop feelings for her. The girl will as well if you are attractive to her. Eventually you WILL act on those feelings. The key here being the attraction element. It's easy to stay friends with a person of the opposite sex who is unattractive to you. And it's very difficult to have heroes who are unattractive because readers/viewers find it difficult or impossible to identify with them. It's how we work. |
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