Forum - View topicNisemonogatari (with index).
|
Goto page Previous Next |
| Author | Message | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23818 |
|
|||||
This may be true for you, but really it is quite meaningless to me. dtm42's post contains content that is much more on point as to why Nise came up short for me. The paradigm, regardless of your semantic distinction between gaining and preserving, was the same: a chick was sick and our hero had to cure her. The only real change in dynamic was with Tsukihi who is the only girl so far who didn't realize that she was afflicted. The show lost no points with me for veering into somewhat new territory there and since both Tsukihi's existence and happiness (through the bliss of ignorance) were at stake, one can hardly argue the stakes were low. Perhaps the rest of your review would hold some salience for me, but you didn't bother providing a link to it, so... |
||||||
|
||||||
Tris8
 Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
|
|||||
 So I like to read many different takes to formulate an opinion, and your explanations always include things I hadn't thought about before.
|
||||||
|
||||||
dirkusbirkus
 Posts: 699 Location: Manchester, UK |
|
|||||
I think Koyomi has also described Tsubasa as 'the perfect girl' in the past, so yeah, that may be part of it. It might also be because if she wanted, Tsubasa could take Koyomi away from her at any time, with a minimal amount of concerted effort. She'll always have that power over her, and to a person like Hitagi, that is deserving of reverence. Given Koyomi's predisposition for helping girls with their supernatural woes, it might be at the back of her mind that he might 'aid' Tsubasa in getting rid of the cat. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
|
|||||
|
Upon further reflection, I realised that a lot did happen to Koyomi this season. He got closer to one of his sisters, he learnt the truth about the other, he stopped a villain from preying on girls, he lost his virginity, and he had some insightful musings on the nature of justice and what it meant to be a brother.
So why did the show feel so gosh darn empty and fluffy? |
||||||
|
||||||
HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
|
|||||
I didn't feel this way myself, but I can see how the impression can come about. They spent a huge amount of screen time on very intricate and snappy dialog, and during those times they would fill the screen with background art or the expressive ahoge of the main characters. If you weren't in the mood to follow the witticisms and the sparring interplay when you watched it, you wouldn't be left with much. Another time, it would strike you completely differently. |
||||||
|
||||||
killmyself
 Posts: 168 |
|
|||||
No it wasn't; neither of them required any kind of cure. Karen would have been fine without Koyomi's help and Tsukihi is a yokai there was nothing to be cured and no attempt. The problems in Bake were that of personal affliction for girls that either created a relationship or made closer a cursory relationship. In Nise the problems were outside threats to two girls he already had close relationships with. As for the hair cutting; Hitagi and Tsubasa doing it both represent casting off their past lives. Karen did it because that is how someone with a bold and whimsical personality reacts to it being a problem. You should take what she said about it at face value it makes perfect sense for someone like that to just lop off a ponytail in that situation. As I said in an earlier post the Harem was formed in Bake; Karen and Tsukihi aren't part of it the perversions aimed towards them in Nise are fake/illusion and there are several points that validate that in the series. What Nise aimed for and accomplished was character development and personal growth. It isn't fair to judge this as a sequel because they aren't the same kind of show. Kizu isn't going to be anything like Bake either it won't have a harem; from what I gather the plot will be mostly that of personal struggle. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23818 |
|
|||||
We only found out late in the game that Karen would have been fine without any intervention from Koyomi. Even so, the entire arc had the familiar: here's a chick with a problem and what's Koyomi going to do about it? It's silly to pretend otherwise. In the second arc, Koyomi there was a problem that needed curing: how to get rid of a threat to Tsukihi's existence. The dynamic was the same as Bake's: chick with a problem, what's Koyomi gonna do? As for the latter part of your statement: well, duh. We knew from the first second that the whole series was going to be about Koyomi AND HIS SISTERS. Of course, it wasn't going to be like Bake, but that's not why the series came up short for me. And further to that, actually I think an argument could be made that by the end of Nise, Koyomi knows his sisters better than he did at the beginning, so again, nothing really wildly different than the Bake dynamic. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
|
|||||
Uh, what? Of course I was in the mood to follow the witty dialogue, that was a big reason why I was watching it. However, I wanted more than just dialogue, I wanted things to happen. What we got was just more dialogue. That's nice and all, but after a while it got old, like eating nothing but chocolate-chip biscuits. |
||||||
|
||||||
kaydub
 Posts: 318 Location: Cincinnati, OH |
|
|||||
|
It would seem that according to Crunchyroll, there will be an ep. 12 airing this weekend. Fingers crossed that it's true, because while I feel the story arcs have been more or less concluded (take that as you will), the season as a whole just feels unfinished for some reason.
At the very least, I'm hoping that any extra episodes will shed some light on the situation between Senjougahara and Hanekawa. Also, what ever happened to Sengoku? Seems like she was the only one that was absent even more so than Senjougahara. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
GeminiDS85
Posts: 391 |
|
|||||
|
If you already have a decent grasp of Japanese literature or just don’t care about connections to Japanese literature, then you don’t really need to read any of this. Of course, I have a motive relating to Bakemonogatari and Nisemonogatari for making this post, but I’m not going to address anything directly about those two works in this particular post.
Monogatari and Waka Japanese monogatari literature first gained respectability during the Heian period (794-1185). Up until the rise of monogatari literature during the Heian period, poetry had been the dominant form of literary expression. While poetry (most of it was waka poetry) never lost its standing, the emergence of kana literature allowed the monogatari to flourish. Monogatari literature was typically written in smaller installments of a larger epic tale, so it was not uncommon for the entire story to take quite a long time be completed. The praise for monogatari literature certainly did not happen overnight, and it took quite a long time before it was finally hoisted into the upper stratums. Two common subjects that are often written about in monogatari literature would be the adventures of a man who has women fall head-over-heals in love with him and women being possessed by spirits. The most famous example of monogatari and arguably Japan’s most famous novel would be Genji Monogatari. Genji Monogatari is the story of the “shinning” prince Genji and his exploits and romantic affairs in the Heian court. A good chunk of Genji Monogatari revolves around Genji going from one woman to another and them having eloquent exchanges of words. I also wanted to point out that one of the things the Japanese highly valued in literature and poetry at this time was the use of allusions and references. It was not uncommon for members of the court to spend their childhood studying all the canonical works of the past so that in adulthood they could understand and recognize allusions and references to other stories and poems. Even though Genji Monogatari is considered to be one of Japan’s most famous novels, it has also been called immoral and disgusting. Incest, rape, and the adducting of a ten-year-old girl by Genji are all part of Genji Monogatari. For example, the “Lavender Affinity” in Genji Monogatari is something a lot of readers have a difficult time dealing with: Genji was the son of the Emperor and the Kiritsubo Lady, but the Kiritsubo Lady died soon after Genji’s birth. The Emperor was greatly distraught over the Kiritsubo Lady’s passing for she was his favorite concubine, but that did not last long because the Emperor soon discovered Fujitsubo, a woman who looked almost exactly like the Kiritsubo Lady. Fast forwarding a few years, Genji is now a young man and is obsessed Fujitsubo. Since she is the Emperor’s new favorite concubine, she should be off-limits to Genji. However, this does not faze Genji because he just goes ahead and “rapes” Fujitsubo. (I put “rape” in quotations because a lot of scholars argue that “courtly rape” should be perceived differently than our modern conception of rape because this was just how the majority of sexual encounters occurred.) So after Genji has a “courtly encounter” with a girl who looks just like his mom, he finds a ten-year-old girl at a shrine in the mountains who looks just like Fujitsubo—she is Fujitsubo’s niece. Essentially, Genji more or less kidnaps the ten-year-old girl named Murasaki and places her at one of his residences, and later she becomes one of Genji’s wives. There is much more rape and incest (Genji’s son and daughter get it on) in Genji Monogatari, but that should be enough to illustrate the perverse nature of Japan’s most famous monogatari. One more thing regarding Genji: Even though the majority of Genji revolves around him interacting and sleeping with different women, the author still felt it necessary to include this fact about Genji: “Though in fact he had an instinctive dislike for the promiscuity he saw all around him, he had a way of sometimes turning against his own better inclinations and causing unhappiness”. Two other major themes that I wanted to cover concern the ideal progression of both the seasons and romantic relationships. The Kokinshuu is a collection of imperial waka anthologies that contain a large amount of poems regarding the seasons and romantic relationships. The seasonal poems in the Kokinshuu are organized in order of the ideal temporal progression of the seasons: the poems always start at the beginning of spring and end one year after at the end of winter. Love poems in the Kokinshuu are organized according to the ideal progression of a romantic relationship: Love yet undeclared, courtship, love after the first meeting, the lover’s growing coolness, and the ending of the love affair in bitterness and misery. I’ll write more tomorrow. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Tris8
Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
|
|||||
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
kaydub
Posts: 318 Location: Cincinnati, OH |
|
|||||
More Tsukihi Phoenix I would guess, I believe Nise only has 2 story arcs and anything else would have to be in the next series. Also, forgot to mention how pumped I am for Kizumonogatari after seeing Shinobu in ep 11. If she's that cool spoiler[with only part of her power back], I can imagine she'll be totally frickin' awesome spoiler[when she has her full power.] |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Spotlesseden
Posts: 3514 Location: earth |
|
|||||
i think CR troll us. lol here is the link. http://www.crunchyroll.com/nisemonogatari/episode-12-589462 |
||||||
|
||||||
|
dirkusbirkus
Posts: 699 Location: Manchester, UK |
|
|||||
|
Yeah, they've taken the link down now.
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
GeminiDS85
Posts: 391 |
|
|||||
|
Nisemonogatari as an allegory
The “Karen Bee” arc introduced us to Kaiki, a man who is selling high-priced imitations to a small group of people. The humorousness of the subtextual allegory of the “Karen Bee” arc derives from the connection between the type of show Nisemonogatari is and the actions and motives of the characters that exist in the show. “Karen, a copy and imitation on both the surface and subtextual level, is fighting against a villain—Kaiki—who profits off selling copies in a story which is chockfull of copies and imitations, and is written by a man who is profiting off a small group of people buying his copies and imitations.” The “Tsukihi Phoenix” arc has a very similar function in that it continues commenting on the subtextual allegory that was established with the “Karen Bee” arc. Kagenui Yozuru has come to Koyomi’s town for one reason: to kill Tsukihi because she is a fake. Rather than ask everyone to go back to my previous post, I'll just repost the relevant information. 2. What is the name of the genre that would best describe Nisemonogatari? Harem 3. How do the answers to questions 1 and 2 relate to the perception of anime? (Think criticism) The most common criticism used to devalue anime – or otaku culture—is that it has become a medium that constantly reuses stock characters, familiar plot devices, standard tropes, etc. to tell its stories. Harem anime, for example, is probably the best illustration of this type of criticism in that it is heavily predicated on reusing standard tropes, characters, and plot devices to generate revenue for companies. 4. How do the answers to questions 1, 2, and 3 relate to Nisemonogatari? Nisemonogatari is, first and foremost, a lascivious harem anime that is being used to generate a tidy sum for NisiOisin and Shaft Animation. It uses an amalgamation of stock character types, standard tropes, and erotic imagery that routinely generates revenue for companies that operate in the ambit of otaku culture. It is an imitation of an imitation of an imitation. 5. After developing a context from the answers of questions 1-4, think about a lot of the self-reflexive, metaphorical conversations between characters in the narrative that directly relate to this newly developed contextual insight. NisiOisin seems completely aware of how his monogatari series is a copy that imitates hundreds of other works produced in otaku culture. Nisemonogatari is a self-reflexive, extend metaphor (allegory) that comments on itself and satirizes through subtextual resonance. NisiOisin has taken one of the most vulgar paradigms of modern media and spliced it with the ostentatious, avant-garde styling of high-culture products. A lot of the Japanese criticism regarding the light novel Bakemonogatari revolved around people making the claim that it was not very original, that is, it borrows heavily from other anime. That being said, the allegory of Nisemonogatari seems to be a way for NisiOisin to poke fun at those who were critical of Bakemonogatari’s unoriginality, or it could be appealing to academic theories that claim that originality has disappeared from postmodern media entirely. Both interpretations seem to work, so you can decide for yourself which one you think is more appropriate. Anyway, here is how the allegory concluded in the “Tsukihi Phoenix” arc. Kagenui Yozuru has come to Koyomi’s town to kill Tsukihi because she is a fake. Kagenui Yozuru functions, in the context of the allegory, as the person who denounces fakes/copies in favor of originals. So how is the person who supports originality defeated? Kagenui: “It was a game that Kaiki often used to discuss…Given the real thing, and an indistinguishable impostor, which is worth more? … Naturally, my response was that the real thing was worth more. Oshino asserted that they had equal value, though. But Kaiki’s argument was that the impostor is of far greater value. In its deliberate attempts to be real, it’s more real than the real thing. Kaiki’s such a petty villain, but he does say some neat things. I suppose you could say that’s the lesson for us here. It took us ten years to learn, though.” A character that would beat Koyomi to a bloody pulp to defend the value of originality is suddenly defeated by words Kaiki said ten years ago. Kaiki, the man who is selling high-priced imitations to a small group of people, suddenly defeats the character that is the defender of the value of originality. LOL. This is an example of the authorial voice intruding upon the narrative and poking fun at the people who claim that not being an original devalues a work. NisiOisin even takes it one step further with Kaiki and claims that not only are originals as valuable as fakes, but according to Kaiki—the guy who sells fakes—they are better. There is no rebuttal by Kagenui, she is just so overwhelmed by the greatness of Kaiki’s words that she abruptly leaves and says, “I suppose you could say that’s the lesson for us here.”. The tricky part here is trying to understand if NisiOisin is being serious about Kaiki’s defense of fakes or if he is just being humorous. Oshino’s statement that both originals and copies have the same value is more of the accepted belief, well at least in academic circles that examine cultural products it is. I personally believe NisiOisin is being rather humorous in this case. First, he is inserting a subtextual allegory into a harem anime. Second, the underlying message of the allegory is fakes, copies, and imitations are better than originals, but at that the same time, this is coming from a character in the narrative, who is an obvious stand-in for a person who sells otaku products, that was created by an author who does the same exact thing. I’ll write more later. Last edited by GeminiDS85 on Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||||
|
||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group