Forum - View topicNEWS: GDH Int'l Head Condemns Illegal Anime Distribution
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Why do you think you are entitled to breathe air? Why are you entitled to life? These questions have no answers. They are rhetorical. Your question was not intended to be rhetorical, but I believe it's the same kind of question. People do it because that's what people do. People do it because they can. This is the way things have been and the way things will always be. Until you resolve the problem of people having the ability to copy (LOL, fat chance) you will have people who choose to use that ability. Frankly, for the most part it's a good thing that we can do this. Every anime producer in existence borrowed ideas and concepts from other works. Every person involved in creating anime learned from the rest of humanity. If ideas (or even expressions of ideas) were not able to be copied it would truly be a negative. Not everyone is willing to superimpose this idea of creators rights where the idea does not exist naturally. Yes, it is true that humans can do a lot of things that are bad that we say are wrong (murder, theft, etc.) but generally we can easily state what is wrong with these things. It is not up to those who take action to justify their actions, it is up to those who say that they should not take action to explain why they should not. In many cases your viewpoint is perfectly valid (people SHOULD buy anime if they enjoy it). In others I don't believe it is (as you said, they are watching what they cannot afford).
Life sucks a little less if you don't pollute it with bad ideology. |
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tissuebubble
Posts: 49 |
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First, you can't "steal" rights. Either you have it or don't. I never took away someone's exclusive rights to the idea. They still have them. It is a concept within law. Not an actual, tangible object. Second, you can't "steal" an idea. You infringe upon it. I can only infringe upon your ability to sell to a "potential" customer. I did not take away anything from you. Bootlegging is the taking of someone else's profit. That is a purchase that you took instead of someone else. Thus that being a crime and is stealing. Copyright infringement is civil and has to do with interfering with another's ideas. The difference is needed. The problem with "owning" an idea is that it can become blurry as to what is and is not your idea. What if you make a book. I then give someone a summary and they decide not to read your book. Did I steal your book from you? What if you make a movie and I take screenshots and write a summary. Is that then stealing? How many screenshots does it take to go from not stealing to stealing? What if I made another movie that is similar to your plot but done in a different way? How much must I change to not be stealing your idea? The reason it is infringing and not stealing is that it is subjective. All copyright infringement is done in a courtroom with a judge who says what is and is not infringement. The Harry Potter Lexicon is being sued as infringement but how is that different from cliff notes or strategy guides? That is left for a third party to decide. |
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Ariolander
Posts: 66 |
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You sir, are retarded. How the hell can you compare a niche otaku targeted series to generic shounen. No niche series stands a chance to generic shounen be it Naruto, Bleach, or DBZ. You can't expect every series to be an Inu Yasha, Pokemon or super money phenomenon. To compare Haruhi to Naruto is a fallacious comparison equivelent to comparing apples to oranges. Not only are they completely different series and genres but target completely different groups. Of course Naruto is mroe successful it targets a larger market. As LQ shounen it targets males 13-18, a pretty broad market compared to Haruhi that mainly targets otaku. They are vastly more teenage males than otaku so they can't even hope to compare. Your an idiot for trying. Moe discrimination? Shoot yourself srsly you killed any attempt to save face. Dude the industry needs a union. About damn time I say. People keep saying support the artists, support the authors, but in the end tis the publishers and distributors that get all the monies and artists and animators with penance. |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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George Harrison probably wasn't happy with the court decision on My Sweet Lord, was he? He claimed it was independantly inspired. The court decided otherwise . It's stuff like this that creat the general public's huge distaste for all things involving courts & laws. You have no right to make screenshots or fansubs. If the company wants to sue you, they can. The whole thing boils down to how much they want to spend frying someone's rear & if it's worth the cost when the only people who profit are the lawyers. If you make the same exact movie, it's called plagerism. You have to change just enough & the people who go in for that kind of stuff usually know how much to change (Plagerism 101, handbook for many a tv series) 2 people make Hamlet--that's 2 versions unless you're running off the same script (unless one is an exact remake which means the copyright holder probably got some sort of recompense). 2 directors visions of a story is different from a group of fansubbers adding an English subtitle to an existing movie/show |
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Furudanuki
 Posts: 1874 |
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1 - Based on my own experiences through both travel and correspondence people with opinions exist in large numbers in both democracies and dictatorships. The ones living under dictatorships simply tend to be a bit (or sometimes a lot) more circumspect about publicly voicing any that wander too far afield from the party line. 2 - Apples and oranges. Naruto has been airing for at least 5 years now, there are well over 200 episodes of the TV series and more are still being produced, and there are several movies as well. Haruhi came out about 18 months ago, there were only 14 episodes produced, and no new episodes have come out in over a year. Also Naruto is a mass-market shounen action series aimed at older children and young teens and as such avoids material or topics that might prove troublesome for mainstream television distribution, while Haruhi had a much older target audience and was never intended for mainstream television. Your comparison of the two is akin to stating that "American Idol" makes more money and has a larger mass market appeal than "Masterpiece Theatre": It is factually correct, but hardly relevant. And I don't know about you, but I wouldn't consider it an improvement if the only television shows available were knockoffs of "American Idol". 3 - If you do a little fact checking, you will quickly discover that Naruto is (and has been for some time) one of the most heavily downloaded series out there. Haruhi's download numbers are (and were) a drop in the bucket by comparison. 4 - If you think that "moe" and "plot-based" are mutually exclusive concepts then I can only conclude that either your experiece with both is limited, or you have an unusual interpretation of what those terms are usually intended to signify. Or is this simply a continuation of your sentiments regarding plot as expressed earlier in the "When They Cry" review?
5 - Maybe they are producing what the people in Japan who actually shell out the yen for DVD's, character albums, soundtracks, figures and other related merchandise want to see. Either that or the people in charge are stupid, and the market will correct itself and pass them by. 6 - Unionizing sounds like a good idea on the surface. But I also know first hand what happens when unions and management engage in endless pissing contests and forget about who really holds the cards - the consumer. I'm more inclined to belive that the unionization effort will result in fewer series and more formulaic anime being produced as executives cut corners in other areas to hold down costs. Expect a lot more low-end CG use. And expect to see a lot more work being sent offshore: why should the companies pay Japanese animators more than peanuts when they can have the work done elsewhere for peanut shells? |
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tissuebubble
Posts: 49 |
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Yes you can make screenshots. Falls under fair use. Same thing with using quotes from a book. As long as it is used in certain manners, of course. They can sue you. But as long as you have a legal team able to fight it for you properly you would win.
Plagerism is an academic term not a legal one. It is still just copyright infringement.
That, my friend, is the problem. What is "enough"? You say that adding subtitles and other effects isn't transformative enough. What about fandubbing? Would that be? No? How about a real life cosplay where they re-enact it themselves? What if it is a fanfiction where they re-enact characters from the story? How far does it have to go before it is allowable? Who is the judge of that? I'm not saying that fansubs pass fair use. I'm just saying they pass the "stealing" criteria presented. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Folks, this word is spelled "plagiarism". |
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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Ah, you must be Fallout2man Jr. Welcome to the party. It isn't the right you're stealing - it's the exclusivity.
Possibly you don't understand what "exclusive" means? If you have usurped their right for they alone to determine when, how, to whom and for how much their product is distributed, you have denied them that exclusivity. You've taken it from them and they can't get it back.
That rather depends on where you live and what the specific circumstances of the case are. Here in the UK, for example, retailing pirated DVDs is a criminal matter and results in a criminal record (and prison, potentially). Why? Because you're selling stolen property. And it's not about "interfering with another's ideas" - it's about attempting to steal the products resulting from another's ideas.
This is, as you're probably fully aware, not at all as complicated as you wish to make out. Being inspired by something and copying it wholesale are not the same thing. They're usually very easy to tell apart and when, on occasion, the line between them is a bit hazy, it is for the court to decide (rather than say, a bunch of selfish internet geeks who think they're entitled to free anime). And your "give someone a summary" anology is not remotely applicable to the subject at hand. Watching an entire 26 episode season is not "summarising" it.
Obviously not, presuming fair use laws are in place in the territory in which you live. And, again, it's not a valid analogy for what's being debated.
That would rather depend on the specific fair use laws in the territory in which you live.
It's not subjective. It's defined by law. Law, at least when it's properly drafted, is objective. Of course, the views of those who framed and legislated the law are subjective. But that applies equally to your constitution and your "inalienable rights" and, hence, to the free speech and freedom of expression that fansubbers (ab)use the concept of to justify taking stuff that doesn't belong to them.
I'm fairly sure you didn't mean to say that but it does present a rather amusing picture... |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Only insofar as you are discussing the legality of the thing can you say this. It's a huge leap to say this in regards to morality. If you think democratic nations are "objective" and beyond having unjust laws and taking unjust positions you are pretty naive. Even "properly drafted" laws have been very wrong. For thousands of years slavery was widely held to be OK. (No I am not comparing slavery with this, I am simply saying democratic societies do make mistakes and do create and support laws that are unjust).
Yes but you stated above that "properly drafted" laws are "objective" (I would take this to mean perfect, because if they are truly completely objective then they have no flaws). So these "properly drafted" laws should be exactly the same regardless of society. Strange that we see something very different from that around the world.
They are very different, but they come from the same root abilities. If copying wholesale were impossible (I mean this in a literal sense, not regarding DRM, etc.) then inspiration would likewise be impossible. It is to our benefit that expressions of ideas can be copied, because portions of these expressions are found elsewhere. If we take the other path to it's pinnacle what prevents those in future years from saying using smaller portions is also wrong? Objectivity? You have as much as admitted that the amount you can copy differs by society earlier. It seems future society would permit less, if it were up to the corporations. The more people that can experience and view something the more that are likely to find inspiration in it. The less that see and experience, the less that gain inspiration from it. |
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Tyrenol
Posts: 398 Location: Northern California |
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I've been an anime fan since '94. I seen as a third as many titles that was made in Japan. And I had to go through the hell that were Ranma 1/2 and Evangelion. I LOST MONEY AND TIME BEING AN ANIME "FAN." AND. Haruhi is ultra-mega-popular in Japan. We all know that. Yet, when we talk about the US's "top ten in sales," Naruto is mentioned somewhere along with titles from Funimation. Call me a retard. Yet when I go to Target or the local Suncoast/FYE; it's merchandising from Naruto, Inu Yasha, and Negima among other things. I have yet to see any Haruhi merchandising.
"Reps from ADV and Geneon had said that 'moe titles' have historically proven that they don't do well in the US." With good reason: Moe titles are usually badly plotted titles. Also, if your market is a niche market (one based on moe anime), then you won't survive long in a place where moe is still such an alien concept to most people. Geneon, folks. Pure Geneon. THE (SECONDARY) MALE LEAD IS NOT YOUR PUNCHING BAG. Japan's otaku-tachi culture is mainly about giving up and living in their group-thought la-la-land. The western world outside of Japan is mainly about fighting and never giving up. Funimation and Viz are considered #1 in terms of sales despite what's going on. The lines are in the sand. SEARCH FOR THEM. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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I HAVE VERY STRONG OPINIONS! The bold isn't really necessary, man. |
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Tyrenol
Posts: 398 Location: Northern California |
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I'm sorry. It's just harder if you don't emphasize what you're trying to say. |
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HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
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Do you have to bring your inferiority complex into every discussion? We get it, you can't handle seeing males get hit by girls. At least save it for something remotely relevant. |
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Moomintroll
Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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Er, yes. But we were discussing legality. Whether or not something is "theft" is a legal judgement, not a moral interpretation. If I steal bread from a millionaire to feed a starving child, I have, by most people's standards, done a morally justifiable thing - but it is still, by any reasonable measure, theft.
When did I ever suggest such a thing?
True but...so what? I wasn't discussing the "rightness" of the law (and if I had been doing so, it wouldn't have necessarily corresponded to any other law). Holding Law A (say, slavery) to be wrong, does not make Law B (say, murder) also wrong.
You might take "objective" to mean "perfect" but that isn't what the word, in this context, means. The law is objective not because it is right or infallible but because it relies on rules, precedents and guidelines for implementation and not on subjective opinion (which is theoretically reserved for sentancing).
Not really. Even if you weren't wrong about "objective" meaning "perfect", different societies have different ideas of what constitutes perfection. People are not machines and societies are not predictable systems.
How so? Can I not be inspired by a book I have purchased and read? Can I not be influenced by a movie I paid money to see? It is not necessary to have the ability to freely duplicate these things in order to gain from them.
The problem with slippery slope arguments is that they can be applied to pretty much anything and nobody can ever disprove them. Oh, and what prevents them is you, the voter. That's democracy in action.
I'm sure it would. And that would be a bad thing in my eyes as well as in yours. But not all countries are as cosy with corporations as the US and no democracy needs to be if a large proportion of its citizens are sufficiently united against such an arrangement. However much politicians crave corporate dollars, they can't get in if enough of you vote for the other chap (presuming he's not Al Gore of course).
Yeah...in all honesty I don't really care how many people are going to find "inspiration" from whichever terrible harem / loli / moe show is currently setting the download sites ablaze. I also think you have to measure the needs of the provider as well as those of the consumer - your perspective is altogether lopsided in favour of the consumer. I don't have a problem with copyright reform - I favour it in fact - but fansubbers throw the baby out with the bathwater. In any case, how many people are going to be "inspired" by all the anime that won't get made because there is no longer a viable profit to be made by the professionals (and the "fans" who broke the industry don't have the ability or the resources to make it for the love of the medium)? Once you take that into account, IP protects the content consumer as well as the content provider. |
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tygerchickchibi
 Posts: 1454 |
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The Naruto DVD boxed set is like... $30 dollars.
Seems like a good price to me. <3 Just a random thought. Anime isn't as expensive as people say it is... The Bleach Boxed set is on sale for $60 right now. o_o I mean... I kinda want to niche the prices on anime, because all boxed sets, not just limited to anime, just vary on price, but I don't see how anyone can't find some good deals. It's not expensive at all. Carry on... |
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