Forum - View topicNEWS: ADV Films, Geneon USA's Distribution Deal Cancelled
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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I'm wasn't disagreeing I was trying to check the AoD boards on this myself as even posts in my own link were refuting the number. I haven't been able to do this as links I've checked there didn't work but that's ok, I again have no reason to doubt what you are saying. Do you have any further info on getting reliable sales figures (including those from 10+ years ago) in general? |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Sales figures are not public information. You have to subscribe to Nielsen's Videoscan, and even then it's not information you can reprint anywhere without severely pissing off Nielsen and whatever company's numbers you're sharing with everyone. It's a bit of a shame because were I allowed to divulge actual sales numbers, it would really open a lot of eyes. But I can't. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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Well, to some degree, most companies do do that, and have pointed it out. Media Blasters openly admitted at the AoD forums that Ah My Goddess Season 2 was far out of their price range, so they passed, and opted to get several other shows for what it would of cost them [and admitted season 1 was mostly acquired to bring attention to their line]. They also often look for items with clearly big DVD potential a that might not be obvious to Joe Q Anime Fan [like their acquisitions of Voltron and Invader Zim]. Animeigo also pointed out that part of the reason they don't release much new titles is the higher prices- which is why we've seen them mostly releasing live action japanese films for the past 4 or so years asides from Urusei Yatsura [I imagine they "played poker" when it came to Yawara though- quite a sneaky win for anime fans  ]
Companies have occasionally also said that some titles are beyond their price range, such as AnimeNation saying that japanese companies were asking far too much for Pita Ten- which all probably plays a part in why we're more likely to see a given show on dvd here shortly after it airs in Japan, and have to wait 2-3 years for another one. Though the problem with is that they have to release *something*, which I imagine is why these apparent high licensing prices had to be put up with for a bit. It's dandy to think that __________ could of saved Geneon, but there's so many things at play, and a lot we don't get to see, and probably never will [who knows how exactly things worked for them in licensing titles from Geneon Japan- just looking at the Bandai Entertainment and Bandai Visual USA situtation boggles the mind 0_o] Knowing that in the comic industry, most non-Marvel/DC comics sell in the 500-3000 copy range [Diamond, and publishers, unlike DVD distributors, can divulge their numbers due to the way the industry works], Geekery often tends to be a lot tinier then it's online presence would have you believe. Sales in the 10000's or 100000's for a comic or a manga do occur, but stuff on the fringes often moves at smaller scales, and with dvd's costing 10 times the amount of a single comic issue, or 3 tp 4 times the amount of a lowerend paperback collection [manga and b+w comic GN's tend to sell for 6 to 12 bucks], it's easy to see how realistic the numbers of DVD's Justin Sevakis posted earlier are (500 for lower titles, 3000 for average titles, 10000 for "big hits") [and with the higher costs involved in producing anime, there's a lot more push to break even quicker]............... If something doesn't sell in the comic industry, it gets cancelled. Too bad it's Geneon's turn, but without support, they can't continue releases...... |
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Porcupine
 Posts: 1033 |
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Except for the cheaper issue, all points that I completely agree with. So, how can we translate these strengths of the manga market to the anime DVD market? 1) Try to make anime DVDs less convenient to copy and/or view on a computer. I think a partial approach to this would simply be to author DVDs and next-gen DVDs in the best quality possible, so that fansubs and bootlegs look awful by comparison. The typical USA domestic standard for official DVDs today is not very good. Especially things like the botched Fate/Stay Night Vol. 2 which looked no different than a fansub. If licensing studios are not capable of engineering a better-looking product than fansubs taking up a quarter of the same bitrate, they deserve to go out of business in my opinion. 2) Consider showing anime in large quantities freely to everyone. Just show ALL anime for free on TVs in stores is my suggestion. Lots of people will still buy, the manga industry proves it. Many people can pirate and see anime for free if they want to anyway. So it can't hurt (overall) to show everything for free with limited restrictions (you must go to the store to watch). Unfortunately I don't think the anime industry has the guts to do this. The reason I didn't agree about the cheaper issue is because I'm not sure manga is actually cheaper. Generally speaking 1 manga costs half as much as 1 anime DVD. But it's not exactly the same product so that's still a comparable cost to me. It's not necessarily true that the content of 1 manga is equivalent to the content of 1 anime DVD. I think you could make a case that the content of an average DVD is twice as much as a manga volume. Furthermore, boxsets of anime DVDs are definitely cheaper than manga volumes (which generally never come in boxsets). I'm not saying that anime and manga cost the same, I am just saying that I am not willing to accept a claim that manga is cheaper without careful consideration.
Yeah I agree with all this. I'm not sure how my previous post came across but this is exactly what I meant to say. BTW, is liamobrien the real Liam O'Brien? The voice actor who did Archer from Fate/Stay Night....not this guy who is a real Archer: http://www.kyudo.org.uk/teacher.html....unless they are the same guy.
Last edited by Porcupine on Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:49 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Richard J.
 Posts: 3367 Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis. |
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It might even be a good thing to reveal some actual numbers and "open a lot of eyes" as you put it. Also, what does it cost to subscribe to Nielsen's Videoscan and does that actually give an accurate picture of anime sales? I've always been extremely curious about the numbers and, frankly, I'm about to the point of being willing to shell out the bucks just so I can honestly say I know them. |
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xstylus
 Posts: 263 |
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The following is hearsay, but what I've heard is that most of the companies tried doing just that back in 2005 in order to send a message, and licensed very few new properties. Funimation then broke ranks and went on a licensing spree. In order for that to succeed, ALL companies must take a uniform stance, otherwise they risk surrendering huge market share to a competitor. Notice that Funimation is quite huge now, and they're one of the younger companies. |
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HitokiriShadow
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I meant that the individual volumes are cheaper. Most manga are in the $8-13 range, while DVDs are in the $20-25 range in stores (cheaper online, but still more expensive than manga). As for whether the entire seres will be cheaper than it's anime counterpart, well, it depends on the series. If a 24-26 episode series only covers a third of a 30+ volume series, then the manga will be about the same price in the end. But the individual volumes are cheaper and that's what matters.
It's all easier said than done. Whatever method they develop to prevent DVDs being copied will be cracked before too long so there isn't much point. And it still doesn't solve the fansub issue. Anime companies want to get their shows on television, but its a difficult battle. Outside of ADV and Funi's channels, only a few stations are willing to air them in specific blocks. Other networks probably don't even consider them.
Again, the individual volumes are 1/3 to half the price of DVDs. You really can't argue against that and that's what people are going to see. How much the whole series costs in the end or how the per volume content compares to the DVDs isn't nearly as important since most people aren't going to factor that in when making their purchasing decision. And the manga series is going to have to be two to three times the length of the DVDs to cost more and in order to do that, its going to have to be covering a lot more material, so it won't really matter. 21 volumes of Bleach manga cover what the anime covers in 16 DVDs. But the manga is less than half the price so its still cheaper. Of course, this is going to vary by series, but in general, the manga will still be cheaper.
I believe the cost is at least a couple thousand dollars for individuals. Not exactly pocket change. I think Zac gave the rough price a while back. Was it around $10k? I don't remember. I'm not sure that Nielson would allow just anybody to get them regardless of whether they had the money to pay, either. I don't think Joe Schmoe anime fan could just get them because he said a few grand laying around and was curious. But industry insiders, I think, get access due to being part of the industry. I think Zac also gets access to them due to his position at ANN, rather than paying for the access himself. Of course, I could be wrong. Last edited by HitokiriShadow on Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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xstylus
Posts: 263 |
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It's kept secret because it's proprietary information which is the property of NIELSEN, not the anime companies. I'm sure the anime companies would love to release the info in certain cases, but they can't. The info is copyrighted, and Nielsen will sue (or at least send a C&D) if such info is freely reposted. And I don't know the exact number, but it costs a LOT to subscribe to Nielsen. The subscriptions are targeted at corporations, not individuals, if that gives you any idea. |
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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My suggestions weren't meant to solve the industry's problems, or the fansub issue in particular, outright. They were just a couple of suggestions which I think could help towards an overall solution. When I said to show anime for free I didn't mean to show it on television. Television seems free but in some ways it is still paid for. Anime companies get money when their product shows on TV, and TV stations have to be willing to pay the asking fee, which they usually aren't (otherwise we'd see way more anime on TV).
I meant to actually show anime literally for free. The stores which sell anime DVDs should all get big-screen TVs and just play all their anime DVDs in random order for whoever is in the store to view at any time. Or at least play trailers (which should also be well-made) for everything. I think it would be fine to just show entire anime series for free in stores. That would be the equivalent of allowing people to loiter around reading manga in the stores for free. The manga industry proves that such a system can work fairly well. Many people still buy manga despite this. Certainly some sales will be lost because people read for free, but many sales are gained in the free "advertising" which is far more effective and controllable (since you have to watch in the store and if you are too much of a leech then they can kick you out) than the "advertising" that fansubs generate. The book industry in general has achieved a skillful control over managing the amount of leeching that occurs and making sure it is in amounts that are to their advantage, not disadvantage. Perhaps it is time the video industry adopts the same principles. I don't agree with you that the price of an individual manga volume is all that matters. I think most buyers are smarter than that. It should be the price relative to the amount and possibly quality of content you get that matters, and that's subjective and hard to make a general statement about. Also, in the case of cheap anime re-released DVD boxsets, those are probably cheaper than manga no matter how you look at it. |
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Nom_Anor
 Posts: 246 |
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This whole thread has made me wonder: how much of the market is made up of the "Watch fansubs to my heart's content then buy what I can" group.
Using myself as an example, over the past year, I have watched a large amount of fansubbed anime. I have bought only about $250 worth of anime, but have watched about a hundred series(counting each season separately; for example, Maria-sama ga Miteru would be counted three times(first, Haru, OVA)). Since before I started watching anime a year ago, I hadn't spent any money on anime at all, I think it would be hard to say I hurt the industry, but how much did I help the industry?. How many of the fansub downloaders are like me? If we each buy one of every twenty five series we watch, is it still helpful for the industry? If fansubs were to disappear tomorrow, I would certainly continue buying anime, though not necessarily as much, but if it were not for fansubs, I would never have begun to buy any anime at all. I will not deny many people watch and never ever buy, but there is no way to know how large a percentage it is. Either way, I will not condemn them for it; I do not no their circumstances. I guess my question is: How much of the anime market is people like me, spending only a couple hundred dollars on anime per year; if we were to disappear, would the market be hurt at all? Would it crash and burn? (on the topic of manga cost vs anime costs, I think it is largely how quickly a person reads. I can't afford to buy manga; when it takes me 12 minutes to read a volume, it comes out to 50$/hr to read it when anime is, depending on LE/single/boxset/thinpack, 5$-25$ per hour) Last edited by Nom_Anor on Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:51 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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The fact that the numbers are also simply property is exactly the sort of reason I have such a problem with the whole system and the concepts behind it.
In any case, I'll accept that there is a possibility that I'm wrong and the numbers of sales have fallen in the past years. I don't think that the reason for that could be said to be piracy alone, however. If there are indeed more titles being licensed then it's likely that this fact means people are spreading out their dollars among the larger number of titles, and since the fan base (that is willing to buy) is still essentially the same proportion of the populace, you'd expect to see less sales per title, but more as a whole. Still, it is really an impossible discussion to continue with everything wrapped up so tightly.
I wasn't even a fansub downloader until recently. I was one of the more evil groups who was downloading dual audio releases. Why? Well in my case I actually preferred dubs because it's what I knew from TV. I was simply downloading what was already on (or recently on) TV in most cases but occasionally would see something that I thought was interesting and try it. One example was FMP, I downloaded that (dual audio) and really liked the dub. So when FMP TSR was coming out I picked up the dvds on their release dates because I was impressed with the show. I knew it was worth the money and I had the money to spend (I did not when I downloaded FMP). My sister and brother both watched Fate/Stay night in japanese (fansub) and spoke well of the series, but at the time I was not interested in fansubs at all. But because they spoke well of it when the dub was released I also picked up the volumes of that show as it was released. And recently I've started to purchase a lot more based on reviews/ratings/etc (like Tsubasa, Haruhi Suzumiya, Black Cat, Solty Rei, Scrapped Princess, etc, etc) and that is all because of where I originally started, which was watching on TV and downloading a few things here and there. By years end I think I'll be well over 1000$ for the year in anime purchases, which is pretty ridiculous considering my income, but I do like it that much and I do believe in what I say about these things (in other words supporting what you value). In that way I don't disagree with the people here who absolutely hate me. But, I don't forget where I came from either. I'm not going to hate or judge people who do exactly what I did just because I happen to be in a situation now where I'm buying a lot more. |
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Terrestrial_Cel
 Posts: 99 Location: SF Bay Area |
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Quote for truth. I think many of us have downloaded, even if we don't like to admit it. In my case I buy things because 1.) I like the product. 2.) It's available to me in a region that will play on my dvd player. 3.) The price is reasonable. For Geneon, I can count on my hand with some fingers left over how many titles I liked that they released. I think that might be a reason why my shelf has ADV, Funimation, and Media Blasters, and nothing Geneon. I feel bad that the company seems like it's in turmoil, but what can I say; I buy the things because I like the product, not because I feel I owe it to a company to give them money. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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What I said what that I thought their recent releases were weak or not very big potential sellers. So for starters your huge collection of Geneon DVDs from past releases are irrelevant. Also though, I'm not saying "I dont like their titles and therefore theyre crap." I am looking at how I think the majority of people feel and saying that I think alot of it has either been just not that good regardless of your taste or without very wide appeal. If you think Geneons recent stuff has been good, congrats. However to quote your own arguement: "that's you. JUST because you are interested in a title doesn't mean others are. Finally, Theres no need to get all upset because I insulted your precious Geneon. Infact, you seem to be going off on a tanget while only being vaguely aware of what I said. Get some idea of what's actually been said before you start going on about how if I don't appreciate the amazingness that is Geneons relases, it must be because of a lack of diversity my taste. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16941 |
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This could prove that fansubs are indeed a large problem and they battered down poor poor Geneon. This could also prove just the opposite that those claiming fansubs are the main problem are completely wrong. Perhaps Geneon simply screwed the pooch. But magically it has to be fansubs or something else right? Couldn't possibly be they simply couldn't cut it? Not saying this is the reason but folks businesses fold every day. Some from outside influences certainly but majority from simply not being able to make it work. Obviously we can't know here unless they actually divulge the information, which is unlikely, but perhaps more should consider the idea that Geneon quite possibly just made some bad choices and it came back to bite them on the ass. |
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xstylus
Posts: 263 |
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Even I can agree to that, but does this mean that you're finally willing to accept the fact that piracy is a very substantial part of the problem? [sigh] All this yelling really won't achieve much, I realize. It's obvious that fansubbing will long outlive the companies, unfortunately. However, I won't tolerate the fansub community refusing to take responsibility for their part in Geneon's situation. |
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