Forum - View topicNEWS: ADV Films, Geneon USA's Distribution Deal Cancelled
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starcade
Posts: 204 |
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Zac, again, all due respect: Why do you think this has happened?? If you believe it's simply incompetence on Geneon's part, I have no argument with you -- we have simply that different of assumptions. My problem with all this is that, if you listen to EVERY top industry person here in North America (start with an AX industry conference on the subject this last July), they're saying that they're getting killed by the industry. I don't think that anyone short of the top two you list are going to have a very good chance of survival, because people don't realize that there's not going to be that many people turning out for anything if you try to deal with the piracy which is the reason people started with this in the first place. Take out piracy, and you gut many cons and most clubs -- and that's where people are getting beyond the Pokemon's and the YuGiOh's of the world. (And, with Navarre cannibalizing Funi, Funi even failing might not be completely out of the question.) |
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starcade
Posts: 204 |
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That is if you don't happen to come upon something like that at a convention for something else (fansubs airing at WonderCon (on edit: right company, wrong con) four years ago -- before the con went licensed-only -- were what got me started on anime, as one example, and then there's Fanime, which is still about 75% or so fansub...), or something that their friends downloaded and found cool, etc. I mean, are people going to go to the store and buy anime that they aren't aware of?? And how are most people becoming aware of anime if not the fansubs that are at many, if not most, cons and most anime clubs?
Then explain the size of some of these cons! 44K at AX, 25K or so for Otakon?? If there isn't some mainstream penetration of anime, how do they get so big?
You see, that's the problem: What gets you beyond the Pokemons and YuGiOh's and all the rest of the widely TV-available stuff if not friends, but then you're assuming the friends who have access to the breadth of anime aren't downloading themselves, and the word from the industry is that that's not a very stable theory to stand on.
That's not the assumption the companies have been making -- hence my theory that there IS no real anime market in North America. Last edited by starcade on Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Porcupine
 Posts: 1033 |
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Also, I don't necessarily agree that destroying piracy would screw over cons. I think con attendees are made up of primarily anime otaku who both buy lots of anime and download lots of anime. Would all these people leave if downloads were somehow stamped out? I suspect not. Maybe a few might, but certainly not all of them. Gutting "clubs" might occur though, I agree. But so what? Anime "clubs" don't seem to be beneficial to me these days anymore, so it's better to get rid of them if they are composed up of people who mostly pirate their anime. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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The problem, Starcade, is that you go on and on and on and on and make post after post after post, and you get increasingly panicky and alarmist, and yet you're basing all of this on nothing. To my knowledge, you do not work in the anime industry nor are in a position where people in the industry would tell you things in confidence. What I'm saying is you're ranting and raving and none of what you say is informed by anything other than your own personal assumptions and this bizarro-world "common sense" you seem to apply to everything. That's why I'm telling you, knock it off, settle down. You're trying to force this conversation to agree with your "ARGH THE ANIME INDUSTRY IS DEAD!!!!" conclusion, by continually posting it over and over again. Nobody I know in the industry - and let me make this very clear so there's no confusion, that's a lot of people who are very close to this situation - would agree with you on that. No I can't share any further information with you, no I can't quote you sales figures or give you any other privileged information. I'm saying this because you're just going on and on and on and little of it makes sense. I'm tempted to close this thread because of the insane amount of armchair business analyst crap that's going on, where people are trying to come to extreme extrapolated conclusions about the health of an entire industry based on a vaguely-worded press release and an unfortunate event that we don't know the real consequences of yet. It's a waste of time. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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You know, I could just as easilly say that some of you people are just committed to making sure everybody thinks fansubs are evil and are the single reason for every problem the industry faces and are going to result in every single company collapsing. Now obviously I wouldnt say that about you becuase that would be ridiculous since you're not saying anything nearly as extreme. However, its just as ridiculous to say I am "just committed to making sure nobody thinks fansub downloads are hurting the industry." I freely admit that fansubs do hurt the industry. All you're doing in making statements like that is bypassing any actual discussion and causing these debates to go nowhere by assuming anyone who dares to say something in defence of fansubs is some crazy extremist who thinks fansubs are blameless. Honestly, the main reason I usually find myself arguing for fansubs is because I find so many blatantly stupid things being said against them (I dont mean you here). I think that says something sort of sad about this issue too. Its a bad sign when the anti-fansub people are being far more foolish than the pro-download people. In fairness, ANN tends to be free of the most extreme pro-fansub people. Still though, it seems the side that's supposedly in the right, can be just as ridiculous as the idiots yelling stuff like "Anime should be free". BTW, if you include viable statistics on fansubs as well, then yes that would be able to potentially give more of an idea. However that really isnt what people were talking about. Its just the sales figures on its own.
Just because theres fire doesnt mean they house is burning down. |
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Zen_Fool
Posts: 4 |
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Cute, if you can't even refute an argument properly then you really have no point do you?
Factual evidence, you know, the type you use in a debate. I know, it's such a hard concept for you to grasp, but please bare with it. The MPAA and RIAA blame declining sales on piracy too, however anyone that takes a look at the numbers they provide, market trends, etc. can sincerely and truely prove that piracy is NOT the reason they are losing money. Asking for evidence for your primary point and accusation is only logical at this point. Anything else, is quite simply, hearsay with a good chance of BS!
Don't be a smartass, it isn't becoming. People think we Americans are rude, posh. I don't doubt they weren't making money, however to point fingers there must be FACTUAL evidence. It's easy for companies to point the finger at every scapegoat out there before taking responsibility. And what proof to we have that it was "fansubs" and not your everyday bootlegs? The point is, quite frankly, that I'm not going to say either way what caused them to go out of business. On the other hand, since you say that fansubs were the cause, I'm asking you to PROVE it. If you can't do it, then stop throwing your opinion around so wrecklessly. It shouldn't be that hard to restrain one's self should it?
I'm missing your point here. The problem is, as you stated, they weren't being rented. Nothing proves that this has to do with fansubs.
I watched all of Haruhi on fansub already . . . guess what? I'm buying ALL of the SE boxes. Why? It's a solid product, is competitive in pricing for those that KNOW where to shop, and is a great series. Had I not seen it, I wouldn't have dropped a dime on it. Simple as that.
I pick and choose what I buy based on company, pricing, and priority. I'm not going to deprive myself par-say, but if a series costs more than what I can afford or believe it to be worth, where I can get two other anime series I want I'll probably go elsewhere. I won't touch the other till the pricing becomes reasonable or I can get it used. I waited YEARS for a fairly priced FLCL boxset to come out, and after so long here we have the Ultimate Edition. You can't blame fansubs on something like me not buying Ergo Proxy. Yes, I've seen it. However, I'm not in a financial position to buy it outright (though I have started, it's just taking time). Once again, had I not seen it, I wouldn't have dropped a penny on it in the first place. It's not cheap enough to risk, and it's too expensive to reach priority status for me financially at this point. It's not even being aired anywhere in my area, so it's getting almost no advertising to get people interested in buying. I feel fansubs help fill the gap, though it ISN'T perfect. Fansubs can and are abused, however they help in many ways too. At least, that is my opinion. |
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cloud1989
 Posts: 274 |
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so is geneon done for or not. I got lost in the confusion of this super long debate. And could someone point out how what appears to be a buisness deal gone bad turn in to a piracy debate, from what I see fansubs and what geneon and adv did have nothing at all to do with each other. It would be nice if the anwser could be rather simple as essay long posts are what kept me from reading everything.
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Seriously people, this is not a fansub debate, this is the last warning on this matter.
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HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
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No, it is not moot. People have limited money to spend and if they want 5 different titles about equally, the cheaper one(s) will take priority. And what if you aren't absolutely sure you want it? You may have heard good things about several shows, but the cheaper ones are less of a risk. And people may not necessarily go without it; they may simply choose to buy the cheaper one and stick with fansubs or DVD rips of the more expensive ones.
Yep, its all speculation since almost none of us have any inside information. And those that do can't reveal the sources and NDAs prevent any real info getting out. Speculation about the reasons are fun (for some of us, at least) but ultimately its almost entirely opinion and there is no point in getting in heated arguments about it. And, yeah, its unlikely anyone is going to convince anyone of anything. Last edited by HitokiriShadow on Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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In any case though, you're not talking about the same thing I was talking about. I was only addressing a specific comment that starcade just made. I never said that the existence of fansubs can't help promote sales sometimes. I only said that if you've NEVER seen ANY anime before, fansubs aren't somehow gonna magically get you started with buying anime DVDs. I said that if you've NEVER seen ANY anime, then probably you will first get interested watching anime on Cartoon Network and such. Modest amounts of free and good quality anime are always available to us. No one needs fansubs to "learn" what anime is. EDIT: Keonyn, oops sorry for responding to and talking about fansubs again. I wrote this post before yours got in. If this post turns out to be the last straw that gets this thread locked, please delete this post instead and let it go on. 
Last edited by Porcupine on Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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cloud1989
Posts: 274 |
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didn't you hear the man, this is not a fansub debate, now is there any clear explanation if geneon is done for since that is the real concern apparently, as I stated before I am having a hard time following what is really going on.
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Previously though, you said fansub discussion was okay as long as it remained relevant to the topic of Geneon. Is that still what you're saying or are you asking for a complete stop? Just a suggestion, but perhaps you should tell people to completely stop even if it is relevant to Geneon. Its gotten to the point where even the relevant stuff has become redundant and its just fueling irrelevant fansub debate. |
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Nabeshin
 Posts: 94 |
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My point wasn't simply that they'd do it because they're in the same locale as one another, merely pointing out that it is a benefit for physical inventory and personnel shift should they ever attempt it as an added bonus. The real strength lies in Tokyopop's marketability, high profile, and asset management that's grown since they gave their first crack at it, and again, product that is already established as having a proven fan base. I'm not saying they should do it, merely stating that they could now, since again their production with digital manga animation and voice lean more and more into that field with each new attempt... |
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Dargonxtc
 Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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Really no one knows. And really we only know the same amount that we did when the information of this deal was leaked. Now the deal is off. However the biggest news in my opinion came in between the news of the deal and the news of the deal breaking. That was the news of the actual firing of the marketing, sales and distribution staff. It really elevated this whole thing to reality, and when it finally did happen, was a bigger indication that Geneon was in real trouble than any sales figure. The ADV deal was supposed to fill that void. Now Geneon is like a ship without its star charts(or GPS for you non learning types). Not sunk, but without any direction or bering either. Only time will tell if another ship will find them and fix there GPS, or maybe the crew will decide to abandon ship, climb in a skiff and head for last known land. Point is, no one knows, and there is a lot of speculation. Personally it is hard for me to believe they would just go away after everything that they have done in the last 2 years. However you just don't go and do the things they have done unless something is seriously wrong. Just what exactly that is though, no one knows, and if they do they ain't talking. But it will come out eventually. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16941 |
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I'm pretty sure he said it was ok before assuming there would be a measure of intelligence shown and not "it's a problem you're wrong" or "no you're wrong they're fine" types of responses. Dress them up however you want that's what 95% of them have been in essence. Now it's no fansub talk period. And since he just responded before my first edit I'll take off the second half of this paragraph as he answered it anyway. edit---instead of making another post just adding on......
As has been mentioned the deal breaker could have come from either side. Perhaps ADV after more thought decided they couldn't take up the titles without risking their own money to a point they were uncomfortable with. Maybe they were the only one interested at all so no more "deals" have been announced. Maybe ADV just didn't see enough profit in it for them because let's face it people anime is a business. And the object of a business is to make money and sell their product. Or maybe it is Geneon's doing because ADV wasn't going to handle their titles with the care they thought they deserved. Maybe ADV was the only ship who knows. Plus it does sound to be the ship isn't simply without a captain; it's also got holes in it and ran out of food rations 2 weeks ago. Short of a miracle it looks like it's sunk. Of course we all could be completely wrong. maybe the heads of Geneon lost all the money and shares in Vegas at the roulette table or playing black jack. 
Last edited by Redbeard 101 on Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:50 am; edited 2 times in total |
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