×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
Phantom ~Requiem for the Phantom~ (TV)


Goto page Previous    Next

Anime News Network Forum Index -> General -> Series Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
egocentric



Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Posts: 19
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:01 pm Reply with quote
lhernan02 wrote:
My main issue is the whole pointlessness of it. spoiler[Why kill them? the show is over, you have 30 seconds left, they fulfilled their dreams and now they can ride off into the sunset. The viewer can kill them off when they reach Ulan Bator, have them slip on a banana peel on the road and break their necks, have them move to Tokyo and live with Mio as a threesome, or whatever crazy or normal future the viewer wants. There is absolutely no need to close off the series like that in the last 30 seconds. This is one of the few shows where an open ending would have been perfect since any close was bound to be anticlimactic.]

It was that or kill off the whole spoiler[Inferno.] Which one would fit easier within one episode? Of course, I'd love to see them spoiler[killing Inferno, mainly its boss]. But that's alright, this ending was satisfactory enough. Next time I watch this anime I'll make sure to enjoy the characters even more, since I know what's to come. Looking from that point, the ending wasn't as bad as you make it sound.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lhernan02



Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 196
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:03 pm Reply with quote
egocentric wrote:

Well, the dictionary says otherwise:
Quote:
A group of women sexual partners for one man.

As you can see, it says "sexual partners". And in case you're capable of understanding the word "sexual", then you'd know nothing sexual happened between the 3 girls and Zwei.


Forgive me, but do you understand the idea of "context." By the dictionary's definition, there has never been a non-hentai "harem" anime. "Harem" anime refers to a convention/trope in anime where many girls are after one guy, the guy never chooses between them, and nobody has sex (unless its hentai, then they do).
So, in its wider interpretation, this show qualifies. The fact that Zwei has sexual relations with Clau can actually be used as "proof" that this is not a "harem" anime.

egocentric wrote:
Quote:
now lets all be friends

I, thankfully, refuse.

Cool with me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
egocentric



Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Posts: 19
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:07 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Forgive me, but do you understand the idea of "context." By the dictionary's definition, there has never been a non-hentai "harem" anime. "Harem" anime refers to a convention/trope in anime where many girls are after one guy, the guy never chooses between them, and nobody has sex (unless its hentai, then they do).
So, in its wider interpretation, this show qualifies. The fact that Zwei has sexual relations with Clau can actually be used as "proof" that this is not a "harem" anime.

More than you, that's for sure. Harem was never modified because of anime. The word has, and always will, follow its meanings. Shall I explain the word "sexual" as well? Well I think the most common use would be: "Implying or symbolizing erotic desires or activity". Basically, "sexual" doesn't always involve sex.
Oh right. Claudia. spoiler[He had sexual activities with one out of four]. How would that make it a harem?
And sincerely, it's 4am here, and I don't want to stay up any longer explaining the meaning of words to you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lhernan02



Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 196
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:26 pm Reply with quote
Kirkdawg wrote:
Several? By that you mean, Cal and Ein? Claudia is somewhat debatable, as I think she was just using Reiji. Reiji was never indecisive; his love towards Cal was a love as sister and brother. Therefore, we are now left with just Ein. So 1 for sure romantic interest and another that is debatable is all of the sudden a harem. Not to mention Reiji does not seem "indecisive" to me at all.


This is an "agree to disagree" issue, if you were to analyze this as one of the infinite dating sim animes, then the girls are Ein, Drei, Clau, and Mia with Lizzy and glasses girls as secondary interests, and remember, it is not the lead that has to like the girls, it is otaku wish fulfillment, the girls like the lead, he is the aloof one. And I agree with you on Reiji's view of the girls (although you left Mio out), but he still follows the "harem" trope of being indecisive because he never tells any of them how (we believe) he feels, it is just hinted at.

Kirkdawg wrote:
Just "because"? It made bloody sense, those two worked for a well established syndicate and they were both wanted dead. They have killed countless people, so by no means were they innocent bystanders just caught in the crossfire. No, their hands are plenty soiled. Your reasoning seems a little underage; just because the story ended up killing off two of the main characters at the end does not mean they must in turn somehow magically turn Inferno upside it's head to coincide with the theme you mentioned previously.


Yes, just "because," why would Inferno go after two retired assassins who just took out a whole Yakuza clan and six custom designed assassins on their way out. It would be a complete waste of resources to go after them, if they go back to their old trade, then hire them or kill them or both.

Kirkdawg wrote:
I find it amusing you take the somewhat insulting comment I tossed your way and threw it back at me. Reminds me of elementary school "I'm rubber you're glue" type argument. I'm having a debate with you, not a tantrum fest. Discrediting an entire series because the ending isn't a happy one is the justification for the tantrum comment. I'm not even sure if you understand my position as to what I do and do not like about this show so I think it's unfair of you to say that you know. If you have read it and have a decent idea, I apologize in advance.


Sorry if calling you out on your tantrum bothered you, but you are missing the point. I am not arguing why you liked the show, I am stating why I did not. It is a free country, you can love this show more than life itself and I can hate it because I did not like Scythe Master's mask. Thus the fecitious lets be friends line, its a hobby not Descartian philosophy.


Last edited by lhernan02 on Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lhernan02



Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 196
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:29 pm Reply with quote
egocentric wrote:
And sincerely, it's 4am here, and I don't want to stay up any longer explaining the meaning of words to you.


Thank heaven for little miracles.

When you check the Anime News Network forums tomorrow, read up on what a "harem" is in anime, not in Websters, or go to the Websters News Network.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
egoist



Joined: 20 Jun 2008
Posts: 7762
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:33 pm Reply with quote
I certainly said that I wouldn't waste any more time with explaining the meaning of words, but I never said anything about giving up on arguing. Too bad little miracles don't last long.
Phantom isn't a harem show, and that's it. If you still insist on showing your foolishness go ahead. But check Phantom's genres/themes before saying any further.
By the way, what's "Websters"? Well, never mind.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
lhernan02



Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 196
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:40 pm Reply with quote
egoist wrote:
I certainly said that I wouldn't waste any more time with explaining the meaning of words, but I never said anything about giving up on arguing. Too bad little miracles don't last long.
Phantom isn't a harem show, and that's it. If you still insist on showing your foolishness go ahead. But check Phantom's genres/themes before saying any further.
By the way, what's "Websters"? Well, never mind.


Webster's is the main English dictionary in the US (and I believe in a chunk of the Commonwealth).
As far as the argument, it dates back several pages with several people chiming in and nobody states that the genre of this anime is "harem." We are all just stating that it has "harem" elements, not even Tenchi is listed as a "harem" genre, rather "harem" theme.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kirkdawg
Subscriber



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 742
Location: California, USA
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:44 pm Reply with quote
Your argument that Phantom is a harem is laughable still, but it looks like there's no convincing you. If it helps at all, ANN's encyclopedia does not list Phantom as a harem. It's listed as girls with guns.

Inferno sends assassins because it's based on principle. If they let everyone that stabbed them in the back get away because it "would be a waste of time and resources"-do you realize how ludicrous this sounds coming from a hardcore, well known syndicate?

Again, you think I am having a tantrum which I am not. It does bother me slightly that you keep insisting that I am. Of course this is not a philosophy class, but if I'm going to bother posting in response to you at all I better do it right. And you're right this is a free country and I am entitled to convince you that your argument is flawed and you need to rethink it. Of course you're also entitled to ignore whatever I say and make me think I'm wasting my time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
nightjuan



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 1473
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:55 pm Reply with quote
I believe things might be getting a bit out of hand here, despite generally agreeing with the intent behind the responses lhernan02 has already received, but I do want to make a final point before resting for the night.

Considering the fact that some of Reiji's decisions have made him co-responsible, directly or indirectly, for the loss of at least two of the women who were interested in him, I'd say that's definitely one of the things you would usually never see in an actual "harem" show but it just so happens to meet the demands of a different type of narrative.

This seems to run quite contrary to wish fulfillment while being appropriate for a darker, less pleasant story.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:08 am Reply with quote
lhernan02 wrote:
Forgive me, but do you understand the idea of "context." By the dictionary's definition, there has never been a non-hentai "harem" anime. "Harem" anime refers to a convention/trope in anime where many girls are after one guy, the guy never chooses between them, and nobody has sex (unless its hentai, then they do).
So, in its wider interpretation, this show qualifies.


Yes, it can be considered a Harem Anime of sorts. Oh, when you look at it closely it isn't, but generally speaking the set-up is pretty much typical Harem. You have Mio, Cal, Ein and Claudia all having a relationship of some sort with one guy, and they all fall for him despite him being bland and uninteresting (except when he was in his gleeful mode, I wish the show had devoted more time to exploring that side of him). He is portrayed as indecisive at which girl he would "protect". I spotted a couple of other Harem tropes, such as That One Annoying Lecherous Guy, and other girls taking a non-sexual interest in the male lead and his social life. Heck, we even get a Loli and a Yandere and the Blond Busty Chick in a single character.

Basically, just because there is no sex does not stop a show from being a Harem. In fact, most non-Hentai Harem shows have no sex scenes.

Now, is Phantom ~Requiem for the Phantom~ actually a Harem show? Is it really? No. It has many of the tropes present in its construction, but in execution it isn't. Ein isn't into him romantically, and Cal's case is complicated but she mainly regarded him as a friend and brother-figure. Claudia's relationship with Reiji was pretty much like master-servant, and so only Mio really loved him in the "I want to have his babies" sort of way.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
lhernan02



Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 196
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:09 am Reply with quote
Kirkdawg wrote:
Your argument that Phantom is a harem is laughable still, but it looks like there's no convincing you. If it helps at all, ANN's encyclopedia does not list Phantom as a harem. It's listed as girls with guns.


Of course it is girls with guns, its Beetrain, its what they do, its what they are good at. I, and don't believe any of the other posters making the "harem" argument, ever argued that this was a complete "harem" anime (again I bring up Tenchi, but it is the genesis of the convention) rather that it had "harem" elements.

Kirkdawg wrote:
Inferno sends assassins because it's based on principle. If they let everyone that stabbed them in the back get away because it "would be a waste of time and resources"-do you realize how ludicrous this sounds coming from a hardcore, well known syndicate?


Inferno, principle, were we watching the same series, if anything, Inferno is the Machiavelian overthrow of the Medieval Politik. They aim to dominate and will succeed unencumbered by the "morality" that binds the other mafias. If they had played by the rules they would have never made it out of LV. Ein and Zwei are out of the business, maybe even dead for all Inferno (or any other group) knows (the tracks from the dormitory were bloody), so why go ghost hunting? As I said, if they resurface, then do something, otherwise, there are bigger fish to fry. Finally, 1 and 2 did not betray Inferno, they quit/ran away and would have never reappeared exept for 3's fixation and Scythe Master's warped play, don't you think if Inferno could track them down to Mongolia in 6 months, it could have tracked them down before the 2 years of the final arc (6 months of those spent in plain view in a Japanese HS)?

Kirkdawg wrote:
Again, you think I am having a tantrum which I am not. It does bother me slightly that you keep insisting that I am. Of course this is not a philosophy class, but if I'm going to bother posting in response to you at all I better do it right. And you're right this is a free country and I am entitled to convince you that your argument is flawed and you need to rethink it. Of course you're also entitled to ignore whatever I say and make me think I'm wasting my time.

I am only pulling your chain because you refuse to drop it, if it makes you feel better then, OK you are not throwing a tantrum, happy now? If you want to convince me, let me know why anybody cares enough about two possibly dead, certainly retired assassins to spend the time and effort to find out if they were still alive and follow them all the way to Mongolia. As the head of Inferno said at the end, it is a new world, the old rules don't apply.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ian K



Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 250
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:36 am Reply with quote
I finished Phantom a little while ago, and enjoyed it. I didn't get the 'OMG greatest thing ever' vibe some people did, but it was fun. It had some good fights, some twists and turns, and some pretty emotional scenes.

It's main flaw, in my opinion, is that the characters were shackled to the plot. Rather than come as natural manifestations of the characters' personalities, I felt that a number of their decisions seemed really to be driven by the needs of the plot.

Example:
spoiler[When Zwei/Reiji thought Ein/Erin was dead. She rejoins Scythe Master, but still harbors feelings for Reiji. Then when she reunites with Reiji, she immediately leaves Scythe Master for him. Why didn't she just cap SM and join Reiji after she recuperated?]

Now before everyone jumps on my case, I'm perfectly aware that the show offers an explanation for this. It just didn't feel natural to me. And this wasn't the only instance that I felt that way, unfortunately. Other than that, though, this was a fine show.

As for the ending, my first impression was more one of admiration that the creators had had the guts to shiv the audience the way they did, than actual disappointment. That being said, if I had been able to relate to the characters better, I probably would have cared more. Then again, Vertigo is one of my favorite movies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lhernan02



Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 196
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:47 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Now, is Phantom ~Requiem for the Phantom~ actually a Harem show? Is it really? No. It has many of the tropes present in its construction, but in execution it isn't. Ein isn't into him romantically, and Cal's case is complicated but she mainly regarded him as a friend and brother-figure. Claudia's relationship with Reiji was pretty much like master-servant, and so only Mio really loved him in the "I want to have his babies" sort of way.

I mostly agree with you, but I have a slightly different take on 1 and 3.
I think, due to her programming, 1 is defacto asexual and only begins to develop a sexual persona at the very end. Her only relationship template at the beginning is master-slave, by the end, her programming is down enough that she is devoted to 2, if she was a sexual being she would be in love and as the programming continued to break down she might eventually be, but for now her "love" is limited to making sure 2 is happy, and if that happiness involved Mio, then she would gladly step aside and watch over them.
I think 3 has a crush on 2 (if you want to get Freudian, an immature sexual fixation) which he rightly does not reciprocate (luckily this anime does not jump on the lolicon bandwagon) other than as a protector/mentor/big brother. When he "dumps" her, she is shattered, the only "good" male relationship in her life has ended in betrayal, Scythe Master, takes advantage of her immaturity and turns the "crush" into a murderous fixation, but deep down inside (as we see in her end) all she wants is her prepubescent crush fulfilled (which by nature is not sexual but "The Grand Romance")


Last edited by lhernan02 on Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:24 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kruszer



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 7986
Location: Minnesota, USA
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:33 am Reply with quote
lhernan02 wrote:
Of course not, great entertainment surpasses expectations you may not even have had or fails to meet your expectations in a way that you end up changing your expectations.

My main issue is the whole pointlessness of it. spoiler[Why kill them? the show is over, you have 30 seconds left, they fulfilled their dreams and now they can ride off into the sunset. The viewer can kill them off when they reach Ulan Bator, have them slip on a banana peel on the road and break their necks, have them move to Tokyo and live with Mio as a threesome, or whatever crazy or normal future the viewer wants. There is absolutely no need to close off the series like that in the last 30 seconds. This is one of the few shows where an open ending would have been perfect since any close was bound to be anticlimactic.]


Exactly. I agree it's so pointless and unnecessary towards the plot. It robs the viewer of that little aspect of speculation on how things will turn out after the series is over...becausespoiler[the only thing a corpse can do is rot] and that's just boring. Bee Train should stick to what they do best and that's endings with the characters limping, walking, driving off alive and letting the viewer fill in the rest. Now, if spoiler[they had died as a consequence of serving some plot point like protecting somebody or after taking out Inferno], then the ending would have meaning and I'd probabally love it, but no dice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
nightjuan



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 1473
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:03 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Now, is Phantom ~Requiem for the Phantom~ actually a Harem show? Is it really? No. It has many of the tropes present in its construction, but in execution it isn't.


Which is, ultimately, the entire point and one I've been trying to make.

Regardless of how many real or perceived elements you might find, the thing that matters is where they go and what is or isn't done with them. It makes little sense to force a given classification upon the series without taking this into account by being extremely selective. Thus I suppose that just about settles it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> General -> Series Discussion All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous    Next
Page 20 of 21

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group