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I see a lot of people pointing out how ridiculous it is for Alicia to suspect Welkin as a spy, but given that this is a wartime scenario, I don't find it that far-fetched. If someone is suspected as an enemy spy in the middle of a war, the accusation has to be taken extremely seriously until the suspect can be properly investigated. It's not a call for a grunt like Alicia to make, especially when the enemy is on the horizon. She'll probably grow into a stronger fighter later, but for now she's a town guard with minimal military training.

I'm rather liking this series, and am especially glad they're not glossing over the fact that PEOPLE GET SHOT AND DIE IN WARS. It's not gratuitous violence, but enough to drive the point home. I haven't played the game yet, but I think I'll get to like this series.

I really hoped that the second episode would have less crappy logic, but unfortunately, I was severly disappointed.
Seriously, if you have to decide between a shiny new tank, or a rusty old one you have to repair, which one would you choose? Seems the Patrol guys not only have insufficient weaponry, but also insufficient brain capacity.
And why the hell can the tank only fire in the direction it drives? A tank is not a gun on wheels!
After that showcasing of incredible warfare-logic, I have pretty much given up on this show.

Labbes wrote:

I really hoped that the second episode would have less crappy logic, but unfortunately, I was severly disappointed.
Seriously, if you have to decide between a shiny new tank, or a rusty old one you have to repair, which one would you choose? Seems the Patrol guys not only have insufficient weaponry, but also insufficient brain capacity.
And why the hell can the tank only fire in the direction it drives? A tank is not a gun on wheels!
After that showcasing of incredible warfare-logic, I have pretty much given up on this show.

I was more bothered by the enemy soldiers stopping in the middle of the street. What kind of retard would stand in the FCKING middle of the street instead of taking cover.
Why do the tanks always shoot at the strangest places:
ep 1: why did the tanks shoot at the roof of the mansion
ep 2: why did the tank shoot at the windmill instead of the sandbags where the enemy was hiding
Also the explosions should have been heard in the village if Welkin's house isn't located very far away. Just tanks moving can be heard a mile away.

I loved how they portrayed Welkin's Oblivious sarcasm.

Welkin: But shouldn't we retreat
Guy in Charge: did you have any experience on the front lines
Welkin:No sir
guy:Well i fought and the first war,so I think I know more than you do
Welkin:Yes sir,but that's not what I asked.

Funny

4nBlue wrote:

Labbes wrote:

I really hoped that the second episode would have less crappy logic, but unfortunately, I was severly disappointed.
Seriously, if you have to decide between a shiny new tank, or a rusty old one you have to repair, which one would you choose? Seems the Patrol guys not only have insufficient weaponry, but also insufficient brain capacity.

I was more bothered by the enemy soldiers stopping in the middle of the street. What kind of retard would stand in the FCKING middle of the street instead of taking cover.
Why do the tanks always shoot at the strangest places:

They probably inherited their battle tactics from the game's AI. At least we haven't seen any scouts charging straight into a line of tanks and and schocktroopers (machine gunners), nor have we seen any lancers (anti-tanks) run back and forth between two random points on the map before taking a potshot at a tank over 100 yards away and missing.....

4nBlue wrote:

ep 2: why did the tank shoot at the windmill instead of the sandbags where the enemy was hiding

This does happen in the game in the lead up to the second mission of the game (much to the dismay of some random guy doing repairs near the top of one of the windmills). The main difference is that (I think) in the game the damage was caused by mortar fire and the town watch was still busy trying to evacuate the city.

Labbes wrote:

I really hoped that the second episode would have less crappy logic, but unfortunately, I was severly disappointed.
Seriously, if you have to decide between a shiny new tank, or a rusty old one you have to repair, which one would you choose? Seems the Patrol guys not only have insufficient weaponry, but also insufficient brain capacity.
And why the hell can the tank only fire in the direction it drives? A tank is not a gun on wheels!
After that showcasing of incredible warfare-logic, I have pretty much given up on this show.

Yup, any kind of tactical logic in this anime is completely absent. Not to mention that joke of a super-tank with armour hard enough to withstand shots from other tanks, but also the ability to drive at over 60kmh. I mean, really? I guess it's still kind of enjoyable if you turn your brain off, but the sheer stupidity of it is laughable.

And lol at the game AI comment.

^-- But modern tanks can go faster than 60 kph and have plenty of armor to shake off rounds from older model tanks (see Desert Storm), and I'm pretty sure they are trying to depict the Edelweiss as a modern tank. That's not in battle though and probably on a paved road. I haven't seen episode 2 yet, so I don't know the specifics of how it happened in the show.

And yes, the AI is sometimes retarded in the game. My favorite move of those that haven't yet been mentioned is when a shocktrooper charges into range of a pair of scouts behind a bunker, panics, ends his turn, then uses another CP to get out of their range, but stops the turn as soon as the first scout round hits him again.

Honestly, it seems some people are holding this series to an unreasonable standard, at least in my mind.

It's not set in the real world. It's set an an alternate world with materials and technology that don't exist in the real world. So the Edelweiss is strong and fast. So what? If that had been a mecha fighting other mecha, I doubt anyone would have complained had it performed similiar feets. Had it been a foot soldier fighting other foot soldiers, no one would have complained had it performed superhuman feats.

But because it's a tank, does that somehow mean it has to follow real world technology, even if it's in a setting that is NOT the real world? And heck, according to DerekTheRed, it didn't even act that farfetched compared to a modern tank. (I think it wasn't always paved roads that the Edelweiss was moving on, but at least it was level terrain.)

I will agree that the soldiers stopping in the middle of the street at that one point were kind of stupid, though after hearing about the game's AI, maybe it was supposed to by a subtle self reference game fans would get. Very Happy

Ok, probably not. On the other hand, after the first shell failed to stop the Eldelweiss, hearing the enemy commander order his men to attack the treads (a likely weak spot) actually was more sense than I expected from low-level enemy grunts in that situation.

And yah, that one town watch guy was annoying and stupid, but so what? The "stupid leader who thinks he knows what he's doing but is actually an idiot" is not exactly a new character type. Not exactly my favorite character type, but at least spoiler[he's dead now, so we won't be seeing him more.] I did think that Alicia and Welkin should have waited until they weren't being watched, then gone out with the Eldelweiss immediately, but ah well.

The episode had flaws, but I like the characters and the art style. I loved Welkin's banter about fleeing with the idiot leader who I can't recall the name of. The story is fairly simple for now, but it looks like it at least has some promise. So I'm willing to forgive the flaws, at least for now.

To be honest, I hold that standard of logical actions to pretty much every show I watch / every book I read. I still think that "It's a fantasy world" or "But we see this all the time" is noot enough to warrant nonexistant logic.
However, I read a discussion on Wu Ji (a terrible, terrible movie) on that, which destroyed my urge to discuss this issue.
If you can enjoy this show, that's fine with me. I can't, and it is not my intention to nitpick every single detail which could be considered "unrealistic" or whatever until you don't like it anymore, either Smile

You know, maybe they are trying a bit too hard to mimic the game play aspects. If I had 4 shocktroopers fighting against a sandbag bunker with a handful of scouts, I would absolutely charge them straight down the middle of the street. But it does look silly on the screen. Confused

DerekTheRed wrote:

^-- But modern tanks can go faster than 60 kph and have plenty of armor to shake off rounds from older model tanks (see Desert Storm), and I'm pretty sure they are trying to depict the Edelweiss as a modern tank. That's not in battle though and probably on a paved road.

Precisely what I thought about this whole issue. Think of the Eldelweiss as the Abrams tank and the Imperial tanks as a WW2 era tank. The difference between the two is immense on all fronts (armor, targeting, speed, firepower, etc.); a WW2 tank would not stand a chance against an Abrams, none whatsoever. Also, Isara states how her father & step father built the Edelweiss with the intention of "making a tank unlike any other," so all of that logic is there.

Having said that, I unfortunately must now declare that I too am starting to be bothered by a number of things in this show.
Now, this is something that bothers me every time I see it:
Infantry are advancing down road.
Enemy tank breaks out and comes right at them.
Infantry fires their rifles at the massive multi-ton hunk of steel.
Rolling Eyes

It may sound anal, but I can no longer tolerate seeing things like this, its ridiculous to think of trained and battle-seasoned soldiers firing their pea-shooters at a charging tank instead of falling back or taking cover. And I also have to question what the Imperials were hoping to do by firing at building tops instead of the enemy positions; were they taking precautions for snipers? That's the only thing I can think of.
Other than that, its tactics didn't bother me too much. They look more or less like tactics used in WW2 which fits the world just fine. Also, the villagers' stand wasspoiler[done well. They didn't pull off any miraculous victory, they merely held long enough to make a full retreat,] so I give it credit for that.
Also, the whole mood of the story and attitudes of the characters are starting to bug me. I mean, this is a war story right? They were forced out of their homes and had to fight for their lives. They watched people they've known for who knows how long die in front of them. How in the hell can they be so chipper? I was hoping (after the 1st episode) that after these kids tasted actual combat they would start acting like combatants, but nope, they're still calmly smiling while charging and firing at the enemy. This also led to a very empty feeling for the 'after my first combat' scene. There was no spoiler[realization of what war is like, no reflection on the deaths they witnessed and caused, there was only "Yup, so now I'll join the army, YIPPEE!"] Rolling Eyes

Hopefully I'm just reacting too early and the 'reality of war' sets in later on down the line, but right now it feels to me like these characters are just playing a game rather than fighting an actual war.
I haven't given up on it yet, but its not looking too promising anymore...

[quote="Hazumu-san"]I got the game because I really liked the character designs. Plus it was one of the few RPG-like games for my PS3. (I still have to finish it, I am so slow with videogames)

Indeed it is. It's really a must buy just because its RPG. But I really agree to someone that PS3 needs more RPG. And yes, Valkyria Chronicle, I really really enjoyed that. (Still not finish tho :l )

Labbes wrote:

To be honest, I hold that standard of logical actions to pretty much every show I watch / every book I read. I still think that "It's a fantasy world" or "But we see this all the time" is noot enough to warrant nonexistant logic.
However, I read a discussion on Wu Ji (a terrible, terrible movie) on that, which destroyed my urge to discuss this issue.
If you can enjoy this show, that's fine with me. I can't, and it is not my intention to nitpick every single detail which could be considered "unrealistic" or whatever until you don't like it anymore, either Smile

Yah, but when dealing with a fantasy world, how do we decide what is or isn't "logical"? When talking about technology, should we look at something and base whether or not it is logical on the ability of real world technology to reproduce it? By that standard, pretty much every single sci-fi show in existence is illogical, while the tank in Valkyria Chronicles isn't really that illogical.

But that standard is foolish, in my mind. It doesn't matter whether real world technology can make a tank that fast, what matters is whether the technology of the Valkyria Chronicles world can make a tank that fast. We haven't seen enough of the technology to really know whether or not that tank should be feasible, but it at least seems somewhat plausible to me, for now. It actually didn't come off as overpowered as some other "prototype" weapons that are so common to anime series, but I'll get into that more later.

I didn't talk about it in my first post, but part of my surprise at some of the complaints about Valkyria Chronicles isn't that people are nitpicking tiny flaws they would ignore in other shows. It's that people are nitpicking tiny flaws that don't even exist. For example:

Ausdoerrt wrote:

-Imperial trained soldiers can't shoot, but teenage girls have a great aim;

"Great aim"? Really? I suppose that's why Alicia failed to shoot a single soldier, ever. Rewatch the episodes if you don't believe me. I remember being pleasantly surprised by this fact. When Alicia was fleeing with Welkin and the soldiers missed them, I assumed that she'd immediately turn around and be shown taking out a least a couple of them. Afterall, the protaganist somehow being superior to professional soldiers regardless of who or what she/he is an old staple of many series.

But... if she ever managed to shoot a guy, we weren't shown it. The only person who does is Isara; she shoots a single soldier. But considering where the soldier was standing, it was hardly an example of particularly good aim. And as for Alicia, in the first two episodes, here is the grand total of Alicia's "combat expertise".

-she manages to avoid getting shot.
-she manages to avoid shooting herself or her allies
-she manages to avoid blowing herself up with a grenade, and does successfully disrupt 3 soldiers with it, though whether she killed any of them or even greatly injured them wasn't shown. Still, it was her best combat move so far.
-she manages to ride in a tank and shout commands to other people while they control it.

So far, the show has managed to avoid the "protaganist is somehow far superior to soldiers though it makes no sense" cliche. But that fact has been ignored by some, and the show has been criticised for using a cliche is manages to specifically avoid.

And it even has more right than many shows to use that cliche. It was stated in the very first episode that the Gallians have military training that starts in elementary school. And more than that, Alicia is a member of the Town Watch, and clearly has some experience with firearms, if not with actual combat. She may not be an official soldier, but she's clearly more than just a normal civilian. And yet the show doesn't have her be superior to the enemy soldiers.

Ausdoerrt wrote:

Watch in the next episode:

-How to annihilate a whole army with just one tank and three people without military training.

Once again, it was already stated in the first episode that the Gallians have military training in their schools. In the second episode, Isara mentions having specific training driving a tank. And as for Welkin, he is the son of a war hero, so it's not surprising he might know a few things. At the very least, he must have had the standard military training.

And incidentally, even with the tank, they hardly destroy a whole army. They don't even completely wipe out a single regiment. As for the tank, it is fairly impressive, true, but it doesn't go too far in my mind. It's difficult to make something like that both suitably awe inspiring yet not absurdly overpowered, and I think they've pulled it off fairly well so far.

In my opinion, similar prototype units/weapons often do go into "absurdly overpowered" territory in other series, where it seems they literally could wipe out a whole army of normal units, where they seem completely invincible (except the enemy will conviently have their own special unit that is just as overpowered.)

But in this case, while we never the Edelwiess get hit in the treads, I got the impression at least that being hit there would be effective. It faces at most 5 tanks at once, and while that is not good odds, it isn't as utterly overwealming as it might have been. Especially since one of those tanks is taken out before they even realize the Edelwiess is there. The impression that I got was that, as impressive and powerful as the Edelwiess was, it couldn't take on a whole army, and would be destroyed if it tried.

Maybe I'll be proven wrong next episode by the Edelwiess storming into 2 dozen enemy tanks and easily defeating them, but I doubt it.

In the preview thread, someone complained about the tone of the show being too upbeat, and mentioned the fact that people seemed to act like a town watch could beat an army. Yet, if you actually watch the show, the first person to make that claim is... a little kid. Then Alicia supports the claim of the kid, after initially showing a wide-eyed expression for a split second after he makes the comment.

If you watch the conversation between Alicia and the kid and his mother, and pay close attention to the facial expressions she has during and after it, it's clear that even the upbeat Alicia doesn't really believe that the Town Watch can win overall. She's putting on a brave show for the kid and his mother. And if you think I'm just reading into things, look at Alicia's attitude in the very next episode, where she merely says that the Town Watch can hold off the army for a bit until the military arrives.

And it was quite clear in the very first episode that even if Alicia was a bit upbeat and naive, not everyone else was. The majority of the Town Watch's leaders certainly weren't. Or did I just completely imagine the concern they expressed when they realized the Imperial Army would arrive before the Gallian army? Of course, that one idiot expressed the desire to attack first and "drive them back", but he was an idiot, and the lone voice expressing that opinion.

People are accusing the characters of being too upbeat in the second episode too, but what do people want? Alicia is probably the most upbeat of the characters aside from Welkin, and she was frowning and expressing disbelief that things ended up that way after the battle. She was pretty somber, for her at least. She was frowning when she read the newspaper at the end of the episode. She showed sadness and concern aplenty throughout the episode. The fact that she maintained a relatively upbeat attitude overall isn't a problem, in my opinion. Afterall, not every character has to be some dark, brooding, angst ridden person just because the anime involves a war. It's hardly like Alicia was a giggling idiot or anything. She just tried her best to encourage her friends and the fellow townspeople.

Quote:

Yah, but when dealing with a fantasy world, how do we decide what is or isn't "logical"? When talking about technology, should we look at something and base whether or not it is logical on the ability of real world technology to reproduce it? By that standard, pretty much every single sci-fi show in existence is illogical, while the tank in Valkyria Chronicles isn't really that illogical.

But that standard is foolish, in my mind. It doesn't matter whether real world technology can make a tank that fast, what matters is whether the technology of the Valkyria Chronicles world can make a tank that fast. We haven't seen enough of the technology to really know whether or not that tank should be feasible, but it at least seems somewhat plausible to me, for now. It actually didn't come off as overpowered as some other "prototype" weapons that are so common to anime series, but I'll get into that more later.

I think you're mixing up posts here; I didn't say the tank itself was illogical (because it isn't, I agree with you on that), aside from it not being able to individually turn its turret.
I think that human actions, or the set of logics they follow, should be at least resembling ours, if the fantasy world resembles ours as well.
Valkyria Chronicles doesn't do that. People act unnormal and stupid all the time, especially in episode 2 (concerning warfare. I had my issues with ep 1 as well). They basically use the uber-strong tank to drive around, and they don't even do that from the start.

Geez, no need to get heated up; I was just fooling around; just because I'm expressing the disbelief here in cynical mode doesn't mean I didn't suspend it while watching the actual show to enjoy it more. The fact is still that after two episodes a poorly armed town watch (even if with a single super-tank) manages to drive away a squadron of organized soldiers with minimal losses. As for the basic military training, well, I'm pretty sure it does not make you a military ace, which is exactly what the three display there in episode 2. Considering that Welkin is a biology major, and his sister has been hiding (since nobody in the town seems to know her), I really wonder where they managed to get that much training.

As Labbes pointed out, there are also many other minor flaws that I didn't feel like going into. Described in a few words, a) the Imperial soldiers are tactically retarded and b) the main characters get out of the battle against odds (whatever you say, if someone is fighting a battle they're not expecting to win, that's what they call a "fight against odds") without so much as a scratch. If that's not a typical anime cliche, then what is.

I'm not saying that the series sucks completely just because of that, but saying that the cliche that is so obvious doesn't exist is, forgive my French, bullshit.

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