Forum - View topicNEWS: Paper: YouTube Views Appear to Raise TV Anime DVD Sales
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SonicRenegade84
 Posts: 630 Location: Atlantis! |
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Probably because they ARE lost sales and are hurting the industry? If you didn't want to pay for anime, you should just stick to watching crap on TV. Plus, there's renting, there's Netflix, there's legal streaming! Like i've said before, unless it's not streaming and not licensed, it's alright but I doubt most people are watching only non-streaming and non-licensed animes. |
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Mr Fingers
 Posts: 42 |
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And there, by comparing a torrent or a Youtube stream to stolen food, is where your argument fails. The chocolate cake has to be baked, cooked, packed and shipped - every single unit. The Naruto shitpudding episode 345 on the other hand can be distributed without any extra cost for the producer. A stolen cake is a definite loss, a Youtube stream costs the producer nothing. Please stop that lame comparison. And this is exactly what this research paper is about. You see, the point so many people on different boards all over the web are trying to make about this research paper being incorrect is just proving the opposite point as well - by proving that you can not definitely tell if streaming or torrenting is actually helping sales, you are also saying that you can not definitely tell if it is hurting sales. I'm not trying to support illegal distribution, I'm not trying to condemn people that watch fansubs. It's just that this argument has been had over and over and over again... and even now when there's someone trying to actually scientifically get some results, this old crap is where some people fall back to. |
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Shenl742
Posts: 1524 |
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Except CCSYueh's argument DOES work. Because the person has just watched the episode by illegal means, if he's really unscrupulous, he now has no reason to purchase the DVD or watch it through a legal stream, or in any way contribute to whatever official agency is supplying the product. Whenever someone illegally downloads episodes/manga chapters and does not purchase the corresponding official DVD or book, you can arguably call that the loss of a sale. To go back to CCSYueh's metaphor, it's like the old Simpsons (?) gag in the grocery store, where Homer keeps going up to the sample lady over and over again with a differant disguise each time to get more free food. He just had 4 or 5 free servings, so now he doesn't need to actually BUY the product. |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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The hell it does. CCSYueh's argument contains no distinction between a finite good and an infinite ad. |
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AlchemistofPandora
Posts: 1 |
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I don't know how true that actually is. In the three years I've been into anime, I have bought every series I've truly enjoyed, and I have watched almost all of those online via stream or download site first. When I have the DVDs, I rewatch them frequently, I lend them to my friends, and I use the footage from the disks to make AMVs, which then get posted on YouTube so others can learn about the show as well. I know a lot of people who do this in the AMV community, and in others. I get a lot of milage out of the DVDs I buy, and I think most anime fans would say the same.  But I wouldn't I have gotten them had it not been for the fansubs and online streams.
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agila61
 Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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The point of doing the study is, individual behavior only establishes that it is possible for things to be one way or another. It does not say where in the range of possible behavior the typical behavior lies.
After all, individual behavior only projects to the market if that person is typical ... and if you know what is typical behavior, there is no need to project from the individual case. Which is the purpose of this study. Of course, the study does not determine whether an environment of rampant piracy hurts DVD sales or rentals or not ~ it is a study within current conditions of rampant piracy. What it can determine is a narrower question: in these conditions of rampant piracy, what is the correlation between bootleg consumption and physical media consumption. As far as causal impact, there is no telling whether bootleg streaming distribution directly drives DVD sales or whether they are both driven by common factors, but with a correlation of 0.25, bootleg streaming distribution clearly does not eliminate DVD sales ... they are either distinct cohorts each responding to the same factor, or a common cohort both consuming bootleg streams and DVDs, but the correlation contradicts the hypothesis of a single cohort either watching a bootleg stream or else buying a DVD. (Sorting out whether its a common cohort and whether its a cause and effect relationship or a common cause relationship seems like it would require a panel study) One relationship is clear: uniformly, from the perspective of the commercialization of physical media, the online streaming on YouTube is more favorable than downloading ~ renting goes from a clear negative correlation with downloads to no significant relationship with YouTube bootlegs, and DVD sales goes from no significant relationship with downloads to a positive correlation with YouTube bootlegs. This is all, of course, Japan. To determine whether the same or similar relationship holds for international anime markets would require duplicating that study for those markets. |
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loka
 Posts: 373 Location: Pittsburgh, PA |
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"These people" that wont pay for anime if it costs a penny are lost sales? This is like trying to teach math to someone with a damaged left hemisphere.
The courts have ruled that utterly incorrect. If they would not have purchased the DVD or book without downloading, your 'argument' isn't much of one. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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Shenl742
Posts: 1524 |
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How so? |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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I understand the results as being so insignificantly small to be of any significance at all. It's not like producers are going to look at this and say "Hell yeah! Streaming on the Youtube's is the golden way to profits and success." Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer choice. 
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Come on, PJ. You know I know better than to trot out a solid comparison because it just makes the fansub fans shove their fingers in their ears & scream. However, Ironwarrior made an EXCEPTIONALLY specific argument which made the comparison valid.
This is why I went with the food sample because he specifically said even though the companies are offering the product via streaming/offering that sample in the store for free, he is unsatisfied with their offering. He is not the "watch & delete" sort fansub proponents champion as why they cause no harm. He specifically states even though he may dislike an anime when first he watches it, he keeps it to view months or even YEARS later. Ironwarrior is equating the fansub as a solid product. Complain to him.
Anime appears magically? No one has to write the episodes? No one has to draw them? No one has to voice them? No one has to put them on the airwaves? I argue more people are involved in making the average anime than your chocolate cake.
I've been around awhile. My first Betamax cost about $1000 in 1983. When I was a child, we (the masses) did not possess the ability to record shows off tv, yet they were distributed over the air "at no cost" to the producer (outside the cost of producing the thing of course including paying the people to put it out over the air). The only change was recording devices came into being so people could record shows. If any person made bootleg copies of those shows to sell, they risked jail for it. I know a guy who did time for making copies of the videos he rented from Blockbuster (father of a school friend of my daughter). He didn't damage the product--Blockbuster still got it back, yet he was seen as stealing because he knocked himself off a copy-like making a fake rolex. By your analogy, Rolex is unharmed, right? Why should they if care some guy makes himself a copy of their product? Why should Mrs Fields worry about someone copying her recipe & selling cookies under the company brand? She's not out anything.
I have no problem if it's a valid study, but the guy himself has printed a disclaimer. Most of us have been around long enough to have seen valid surveys where the margin of error is listed & people were questioned at random. The information presentwed here lacks that. I bet I could run a survey that says the Chargers are the most popular football team in America if I go to a sportsbar when the team is playing & only ask the people wearing Charger shirts who their favorite team is. I just don't believe one could call it a valid survey because it is obviously slanted. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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The author would appear to be claiming a bit more than can be drawn from a correlation analysis alone, but I can't tell what precise claims are being made, whether he has any time sequencing to do a Granger-causality test, etc., since I don't read Japanese.
OTOH, if it was, "the same things that make these people over here excited to watch the YouTube makes those people over there excited to buy the DVD", so its a correlation sales but not a benefit to sales, in that case you'd maybe sell advertising to someone else on the content when the bootleg is detected. Given Youtube's low video quality and the requirement to chop bootlegs into three 8-ish minute pieces per episode, it'd not be surprising if YouTube bootlegs drove sales of DVD's, while higher quality downloads don't. Last edited by agila61 on Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tucker491
Posts: 1 |
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Alright i have read the article, and the posts of everyone else on here and i felt i should put in my 2cents on the matter.
I became an anime fan during the summer of 2006. This was due in part to the raise of anime episodes being uploaded onto up and coming video streaming sites like youtube, vidiac, veoh, etc. These sites allowed me, a young and poor HS student, to video and experience something new and foreign to me. Viewing fan subs on these sites helped me gain a great deal of interest into anime, as i didn't have to fork over 20bucks for a 3episode dvd with "dub" anime which more frequently than not had horrible dubs, and did not offer subs with Japanese audio which i prefer. Also since i live in the US, most of the animes being uploaded and streamed on those sites were not being aired on US tv, or offered on DVD yet or at all. So because of these fan subs i learned about anime, gained an interest in it, and learned to pick and choose what was worth my time and what was not. A BIG part of me enjoying fansubs over the LEGAL copies offered by the companies is the QUALITY put behind the fansub groups work compared to the companies work. I read on here an earlier poster who said quality translations are a luxury and not a necessity, but i disagree. I enjoy fansubs more than official subs simply for that fact that fan subbers put more work into translating Japanese into an English that makes sense to the viewers. I am not saying official subbers don't translate well, but they tend to stick to STRICT grammatical English rules when they translate, and when read by viewers the subs seem out of place at times. Also fan subs provide little things that to MANY of you "hardcore" fans may see as insignificant, such as subs/lyrics to the intro/end song, different fonts/colors for subs to help viewers read subs more clearly than the standard white/yellow fonts used by official subs, and subs on top of objects in anime that are written in Japanese so that the viewer can understand what a sign, letter, newspaper, etc in anime are saying. These are all SMALL things, but to many people these things make the difference when choosing between watching official vids and fansub vids. Now fansubbers do all this "extra" work for FREE and produce a far superior product than the "professionals" being paid to do the same job. So it is my opinion that if anime companies want their officially subbed videos offered on streaming sites AND on DVDs to gain more attention from anime fans who are picky when it comes to spending their money or even dedicating their time to watch 30-60second ads on streaming sites then they need to LEARN from the fansubbers and produce QUALITY sub work befitting the title of "professionally" made. Finally on the topic of buying DVDs, streaming, downloading illegally, and rentals of anime. I personally feel that the DVD market is slowly but surely going to die out. We are in the digital age and alot of people want to have music, videos, programs with them at all times WITHOUT the need of having to drag along physical copies of dvds/blurays. I personally would prefer anime episodes to be offered same day as they are released in japan with the same quality subs as fansubs on official streaming sites, even if the video quality is so-so, BUT at the same time i would like the companies to offer DIGITAL downloads of the anime episodes FOR SALE same day episode is shown in japan. (Perhaps charge a low fee for digital download as very few people are going to pay $10 for a 22-24min long vid) This way if episode is offered SAME day as in japan, those of us in US and other markets will not rush over to torrent the fan subs that receive raw of episode and translate it same day as Japanese release or the next day. We will be able to see and support official subs, and purchase a DIGITAL copy of the anime episode for storage on our pcs, ipods, ipads, etc. The issue of 1 person buying the ep and sharing with a bunch of his friends might be brought up, but digital copies of videos is whats new and whats hot. People are tired of being limited by physical copies of books, dvds, games and that is why the DIGITAL industry is booming in sales of ebooks, movies, games, etc. SO if anime companies want to expand and succeed in other markets outside of Japan they need to learn what interest us the consumers and make it happen. Sorry for long post, but i had a few things to say after reading all posts. |
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Charred Knight
 Posts: 3085 |
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excuse me you can see several series on the same day with legal streaming. In fact several fansub groups have quit and been replaced by people who simply rip the script from Crunchyroll and Funimation. People actually fansubbing the series are dying out.
The fansubs are more readable because they have more color? That makes no sense, very rarely do you have more than one person talking at the same time, and the extra colors make things harder to read. subs should be chosen to be easily read, not to color coordinate characters. |
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mangamuscle
Posts: 2658 Location: Mexico |
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@Tucker491
Sadly most people in this forum will label as a criminal and they will try to brainwash to accept ever less quality for prices as high as they can get away with even though your represent the average consumer. |
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