Forum - View topicNEWS: ADV Films, Geneon USA's Distribution Deal Cancelled
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ImperialPanda
Posts: 16 |
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I feel a need to be the devil's advocate here.
Blaming fansubs and the people using them is absolutely ridiculous. If Geneon goes belly up, there's only one reason: poor management. No ifs, ands, or buts. If they were in Africa and some local warlord just one day randomly decided to blow up their headquarters, then, ok, it's not their fault. But they're in the US, no excuses. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Wow. That really, really, blows. I guess I should count myself lucky that this is the only thing I'm really watching from Geneon that falls into this category. Of all Geneon's stuff I would think this has the best chance of getting picked up by someone else somehow too so thats good. I'm eager to hear why it fell through. If its because of a problem on ADVs end, I'm really pretty pissed at them for screwing over Geneon and putting them in this position. If its a problem on Geneons side, I kinda blame them for screwing up themselves and making this a very awkward transition hurting the fans. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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I'm not saying they're solely at fault. But they're not exactly a harmless curmudgeon either [and it's ridiculous to call them innocent]...... it's a mixture of things, and hopefully other companies will learn from all this, and improve things so that they can continue to make a wide variety of anime available to use in a legal fashion.
If ADV made this choice moreso for protecting themselves from a similar fate from taking on Geneon's large catalogue at a price that might not work for them finanfically, I can't blame them for pulling out. Last edited by Paploo on Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:19 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief
 Posts: 1684 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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Don't apologize! It's very, very uncertain times right now. Anyone who cares about this industry feels the exact same way. Some of us who are closer to the industry (or in it) saw SOMETHING coming, but nobody knew when or what. You could be right -- it could be doom. But maybe not. Everyone's working very very very hard to avoid it. Who knows. In 5 years this could be a very healthy, thriving business again. |
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Porcupine
 Posts: 1033 |
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MeggieMay, regarding renting and its legality, we did have a number of recent discussions on that here. I'm not sure if we proved anything definitively though. I didn't leave those discussions convinced that renting anime was legal in all circumstances. And I certainly left those discussions with the same questions in mind that you just posed: what kind of revenue do anime companies make off of rentals, and how do they make them?
I'm not sure I agree that ZaWarudo's plan of relying upon Internet downloads is the new way that things should be done. The cost to download and the quality of the download (filesize and video quality) will be major issues. Depending on how these variables are set, online business may still not be that profitable. If the cost is set too high, the same amounts of piracy levels will continue to occur. Even if you set the cost low, if people can pirate and get away with it, some people will always do so. Piracy could even become more rampant if people start transferring these downloadable anime to each other. People with the capability to conveniently download via the Internet are the same people who are likely to conveniently transfer files between each other. The anime industry might have been far better off if the Internet did not exist, or if high-bandwidth Internet access were restricted to far fewer people. I agree with jsevakis who said that the entire business model of the industry needs to be changed. But I don't have any strong suggestions as to what such a new model could be. I'll leave it up to the people in charge. Hopefully they can figure out the answer and be brave enough to implement it. |
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief
Posts: 1684 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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Regardless, any questionable legality is negated by the fact that manufacturers sell DVD's (and VHS before that) to stores for the expressed purpose of rental.
It's really not all that viable yet anyway, since internet standards are anything but hashed out, and interoperability with set-top and portable devices are still all over the place. Everything is going to have to be DRM'ed to hell at this point. There is a third option that I'm seeing in development right now but can't talk about it. It's a few years away anyway. 
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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I wonder if Media Blasters decision to do niche-ier series subonly is one way to do this. Spend less by licensing shorter series, get release out quicker by simply subbing it [which also keeps costs down], do a quick, bimonthly release with more eps per disc, followed by a cheap boxset to keep title in print, and continue selling it once release is done [though still keeping the dvd's themselves cheap enough so that buying them as they come out is attractive for core fans].
Bandai Visual USA's Just-Collectors-Edition stance on assorted anime classics and high profile OVA releases they've created seems to be another [low print run, higher price per disc, aimed at core fans], as does ImaginAsian's PrintonDemand, lowprice stance for their Anime Classics titles [subonly, charge per manufacture, supported by cable TV run]. All involve focusing specifically one the core DVD fans who will buy it no matter what, with varying degrees of attracting outside buyers, rather then trying to please as many potential buyers as possible. And meanwhile, over at ADV, you have stuff like coproductions and aligning themselves with independent japanese producers like Sojitsu while still keeping themselves independent, or at Bandai and Viz a concentration on TV broadcasts [and in VIZ's case, limiting yourself primarily to TV broadcasted kids/teen titles, with DVD's as more or less merchandise, and one or two outside titles a year like their Shojo Beat ones] |
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AstroNerdBoy
 Posts: 413 Location: Denver, CO |
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You know, I hate this elitist pap that comes out of the mouths of people who seem to be made of money. I support the anime titles I like, but with a limited budget, I can only buy a few titles a year and still have money for manga titles too. However, it seems that people like Paploo seem to think that I should be buying every piece of anime that comes down the pipe. Yeah, right. I do rent a fair amount of anime (less so these days as I'm desperately trying to get out of the last of my massive medical bills, which have taken nearly 3-years to pay off) but I'm not buying those titles so clearly I'm at fault for not supporting anime. I borrow anime from friends at times (and vice versa) so clearly I'm killing anime. The fact of the matter is that without a TV market for anime to make money on, the only source of revenue is the purchasing of anime. As a result, anime cost more per minute than anything else you can buy out there. It ain't cheap and so from this fan's perspective, I buy the titles I like. Sometimes it takes a while before I save up enough money to buy a title. I only just recently picked up Last Exile and how long ago was that released? Anyway, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you Paploo or to put you down, but I get angry when I hear this simplistic crap coming out of someone's mouth who apparently doesn't know the word "budget" (and frankly, a financial adviser would tell me to stop buying anime and manga altogether to achieve certain financial goals). I do save my pennies and support the titles I like but short of becoming wealthy (and thus a target for massive taxes), I can't buy every stinking anime some R1 company licenses. Geneon is like any other company, and like any company, there are risks in what you do. Clearly, they made the wrong choices overall because I can look at FUNimation and see how well they are doing (and that's even with the DBZ stuff being online for downloading for free). As to Geneon, if the company is on the way out, I'm hoping that FUNimation can get the entire Tenchi line of licenses and this time, get their in-house translators to redo the subtitles. Plus, FUNimation needs more titles for the FUNimation Channel to improve its lineup. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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Honestly, I only buy a limited number of titles myself. I don't expect people to go out any buy every anime DVD they can. I try to get as much of what I'd like as I can, but you gotta stick to a budget of some sort.
Still, I feel much better just waiting for a sale, or possibly getting a title sometime in the far distant future when I can afford it [Gunbuster 2, will you welcome me back in 20000 years when I have 150 bucks to spend randomly on you?]. I just don't feel it's honest to resort to bootlegging, even if it means only getting a DVD every other week, and watching it on TV [and missing out on stuff airing on cable channels I can't afford] or when I see some on sale for dirt cheap. It's not at all uncommon for me to take 1-4 years to finish off an anime series, and very very rare for me to finish them off as they get released. [I do have a lot of anime, but that's mostly because I'm patient, and have been collecting for 10 years or so] I'm not asking people to buy 1000 bucks worth of DVD's a month [which'ld be insane, and stupid to do, money-wise. Anime's cool and all, but things like health, school, and lodgings should always come first], but just suggesting that trying to support a legitimate release when you can, and avoiding unlegitimate ones [especially if it is a title that's licensed] when you can, might be a good thing for all these companies here and in Japan who make the anime we love [and sometimes, even sending off an appreciative comment to broadcasters and watching the anime you like on TV is a good thing, as can be witnessed by the Big O 2 getting produced due to Big O's sucess on Cartoon Network- something that wouldn't of happened otherwise]. There's also lots of perfectly legal ways to get anime for quite cheap- god knows that the 2nd hand market was a god send to me when I was a student, buying and VHS dvd's off Ebay for sometimes around a dollar each. If you're thrifty, and smart about it, you can afford to watch a lot for a lot less. Another thing some friends of mine have done is pooling resources- participating and organizing anime clubs, or taking turns buying a given release, and trading dvd's back and forth with each other. And of course, there's also the rising availability of Manga and Anime in Public Libraries. Interbranch loans are often free, and can expand your viewing/reading choices in your region, especially since library books [thouhg not movies] have very low mail fees, which keeps accessibility very high between branches and libraries. Plus, it supports a local institution, increasing their circulation, which increases their funding! Which increases their purchasing of highly circulated items like Anime and Manga. It's a Win-Win situation, and much more fun then watching stuff on the net [ You can interact with real people! Yay!] There's a lot of legit ways to expand your anime viewing without resorting to bittorrent [and you do mention borrowing from friends, which is perfectly fine to do I wasn't attacking that, just opposing stuff like offering it for download to 1000000's of people, a lot of whom could very well afford to buy DVD's once in awhile, if they can afford highspeed internet to download that much anime..... And the even scummier option of *paying* money to download or buy a bootlegged version of a particular anime. Fans need to be educated, so they don't get ripped off, or inadvertably contribute to Hong Kong Mafias]
Last edited by Paploo on Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:56 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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Yes I fully agree that renting is legal in some or most circumstances. It's just as you said. But the thing I had questioned earlier is, if you rent a DVD from a small-business no-name local anime store, was that DVD really sold to that store for the expressed purpose of rental? Legality might be an issue of where you rent from.
But, this mentality that AstroNerdBoy may be displaying is something that certain other groups of people hate as well. "I don't have enough money to buy everything I want, therefore I buy what I can and download the rest for free." That's not right either. If you have a limited budget then maybe you should just buy what you can, and perhaps borrow from friends to a controlled extent, but the rest of the shows that you can't afford, you just don't watch. Watching anime is not a right. It's something you are (supposed) to pay for if you want to see it. Last edited by Porcupine on Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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And if your library doesn't have anime and manga, tell them you want it. They do listen to suggestions. That's how they decide what to acquire. Get friends to tell them. Organize a manga/anime club at the library! There are alternative places to get free entertainment then the internet, y'know.
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Yeah, I gotta second this. I have no desire to get drawn into another fansub debate, but it irritates me to hear so many innaccurate statements.
If you don't believe me, take it from a guy who clearly knows what he's talking about. Secondly, the erroneous assumption people make when talking about how downloads are killing the industry is this: Everyone who downloads would buy it if they couldnt download. However basic economics tells us otherwise. If X number of people will see something via download, that means X people are willing to "buy" it at a price of $0. However were the price to be $25, the willingness to buy would be much less. Its supply and demand. As Price increases, quantity demanded decreases. I'm not saying downloads dont take a chunk out of industry profits. However its not nearly as large as the doom-sayers claim it is.
People say this all the time but overlook the fact that in that situation, it is 100% irrelevant to the industry. If you wouldnt buy it either way, your downloading hasn't even cost the industry a sale. If people want to make moral arguements against downloading still being wrong, whatever. Im not going to get into that. However don't try and pass that off in a discussion about how downloads are killing the industry.
I'll second (or I guess 3rd) that. Honestly, I think the biggest problem is that its a market based on turning a profit entirely from selling DVDs of shows meant to run on TV. A market like this is never going to be strong enough to support obscure and niche Anime. |
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bakaShin
Posts: 102 |
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QFT, i coudnt have said this any better. getting back to the topic we cant say much more until we hear the reason for the cancellation. |
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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Also, when I say that I believe that downloaders hurt the industry, I am not primarily speaking about the type of person you are talking about. But, I still won't agree with you that the actions of even this type of downloader are 100% irrelevant to the industry. I would still say they are fairly relevant. Even kids with NO money who download everything for free, can still hurt the industry a little. When there are too many people like this, the people who DO have the money will be encouraged not to use it. Why throw your hard-earned money away when Joe who lives next door doesn't spend a cent and gets the same things you do? Someone in this thread already posted that he/she feels intense pressure from their friends not to waste their money buying anime when they all get it "free". There's of course the popular argument (in the pro-fansub community) that fansubs create advertisement which is a positive thing. It's definitely true. But one has to weigh the positives with the negatives. Probably no human knows the answer for sure as to which is the greater effect. But if Geneon USA is about to go under and if the anime industry about to encounter a huge setback, then I would say that the World just gave us the answer: the current ways are not working, we must do something different. I would say a disaster would suggest that fansubs are much more harmful and far less beneficial than "fans" thought.
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ImperialPanda
Posts: 16 |
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And one more thing:
I don't mean for this to be a personal attack. The marketing people who got fired totally deserved it. They were just slackers who had no idea how to do their jobs and they were the ones who failed the anime industry. Yes, yes, it's PC to weep and cry and go "oh poor people, they lost their jobs." But the truth is if they lost their jobs then 99%+ of the time it's because they weren't worth what they were being paid. There is one thing that EVERY SINGLE OTHER industry focus on: growth. Anime marketers have their heads in the clouds. Put a few ads on ANN and hey, the day's work is over! It took years, but Bandai finally noticed this thing called social networking site. Even though it was still mainly targeting fans and not focused at creating new customers, it still worked well. Can't afford a TV ad, fine I understand. But there are literally hundreds of ways to cheaply promote a product. They should've had more than enough to keep busy every workday, but they did nothing. It's time to reap the whirlwind. Last edited by ImperialPanda on Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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