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I dunno in general I DO hate the mass produced Tsundere's but just every once in a while there is one that comes along that is guinely funny and/or endearing. I think a bad charcter is a bad character tbh. It's wrong to say a character is bad just because it's a Tsundere, It's bad because the guy/gal who wrote it ... stank. People make that association because there are alot of really bad Tsundere's about these days. But it's more that theres just alot of Tsunderes. So they annoy you more. And are far more noticable. If that makes any sense.

poilk92 wrote:

Sorry to burst your bubble but just because you post something doesnt mean it becomes fact. Some of us equate tsundere to bitchy women, if you are of a different opinion thats fine but don't expect us to adhere to your beliefs.

Just means that you're willing to accept broader take of characters as being tsundere.

Darth Joker wrote:

Fans of the tsundere character type perhaps enjoy watching that occur, just like some girls dig the bad boys, and want to reform them.

Except it's not really reforming. That is the inner struggle of the tsundere character. Leads don't reach out for them that much and actively try to rehabilate them as The King of Harts stated previously. Bad boys =/= male tsundere characters and rough girls=/= female tsundere.

Darth Joker wrote:

Revy herself was called a tsundere on this thread. So...

If you ask me, she is a tomboy character, who is being a preachy know-it-all. I can admit that there is no official standard which is required to categorize someone as a tsundere. Sometimes it's even hard to tell if the character is being a tsundere, kuudere, yandere or whatever. I'm just saying that you're drawing out the extreme types and presenting them as the core appeal, which is inaccurate.

Darth Joker wrote:

Anyway, dude, there's no need to get this upset over this. If you like tsunderes, then you like tsunderes. If that reflects your taste in women, or in female characters, then so be it.

Well, I guess the inability to differentiate between real and fictional characters is the virtue of the internet. What people look for in fiction is not (necessarily) the same what they look for in real life. If you ask me, I think there is only one really well made tsundere and about a handful of acceptable ones. Female characters just aren't generally that well written, whether they're tsundere or not.

@naninanino

I see your point, but tsundere doesn't have to be the equivalent of a female "bad boy" in order for the male fascination with them to be similar in nature to the female fascination with said "bad boys". I wouldn't even go as far as comparing tsundere to bad boys though, young women just love douchey men and a tsundere is the female version. A douche who knows what he is doing will lower a girls self confidence by ignoring her flirting with other girls in front of her ect. so when he finally engages her and flirts with her she feels more special than if he went strait for her. I just remember from high school and freshman year of college this happening a lot, though the guys don't always realize they are doing it, and it is basically a guy acting tsundere but over a very brief period of time. As a former douche bag I can confidently say that girls eat that sh*t up, though women will just call you a douche bag. Anyway I digress, even if you don't consider tsundere the female badboy, which I don't either, the attraction can still be very similar, though I consider it more akin to the attraction to jerks.

Darth Joker wrote:

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:

Yes, really. It's not Rei, because she has no personality. It's not Asuka, because she doesn't exhibit dislike for Kaji or any attraction to Shinji, and to be a tsundere, one has to display both traits towards a single subject. It's not Misato, unless I'm forgetting that she initially hated Kaji. It's not Ritsuko, because she doesn't get emotionally attached to any of the male characters in that way. I'm pretty sure it's none of the minor or male characters. So who?

Asuka shows no attraction to Shinji? Shocked

spoiler[Asuka flatout kissed Shinji, IIRC] [/spoiler]

Because she was bored and wondered what kissing was like. She holds his nose during the act because his breathing irritates her, and immediately after they finish she runs to brush his taste out of her mouth. Hardly a strong indication of attraction.

The final scene of EoE shows us that Asuka is still disgusted by Shinji. She's not interested in him particularly, she just wants someone, ANYONE to treat her special, and for most of the show, Shinji is the only option. That's not affection, that's vanity.

@Dorcas_Aurelia

Maybe she is so tsundere she kisses him and pretends to be disgusted because she doesn't want to admit her feelings...

That's an interesting idea. It still doesn't make me think of her as a tsundere. The way I understand the term, there are two prominent ways* to do it: 1) a gradual shift from dislike to like. 2) constant oscillation between irritation and affection. For the former, if Asuka's dere-dere side is buried that deep beneath her tsun-tsun, there's not enough change throughout the series to qualify her. If the latter, where are the other displays of attraction?

*These can overlap.

naninanino wrote:

Psycho 101 wrote:

I for one still wonder why tsundere girls are fantasized about period. Yes, I want to fantasize and chase after a girl who treats me like shit and acts like a royal bitch. Who cares if she has occasional moments of warmth and consideration? The rest of the time she's being a ball busting bitch who gets on you for just about everything. Yea....you can keep her thanks. I just don't get how such a person is so highly fantasized over. I like my women to be strong and independent but not to the point of constantly berating me or trying to hit me with something.

Fantasizing about the bitchy women is the furthest thing from fantasizing about tsundere. Really, do people have any idea what the term even stands for?

Believe it or not. There are actually tsundere characters who are not violent. The staple for the character is initially having a hostile or combatitive personality, which hides the caring, shy, insecure part underneath. They are bad at expressing themselves. It's a romantic cliche and nothing else. Drawing conclusions about what kind of people like them or not is utter nonsense. Like, I could say that people who like strong hero characters are usually pathetic weaklings themselves, which would have just as much credibility.

And people should be careful about wishing certain character types disappearing. Just look at what happened to the archetypical romantic hero male like Harlock. Got replaced by these.... new ones.

The term can mean different things to different people. Accept it. Just because you think of it in a certain light others might feel differently. Obviously the physical aspects of tsundere characters are just one facet. One not present in all examples. That's rather obvious. Again though regardless if the abuse is physical or just verbal tsundere characters by in large are just bitchy. I get the technical aspects of the character type and their role in shows. I simply still am at a loss to those who vote for these characters as the greatest characters ever or think they're so wonderful. Guess I'm just getting old.

Dorcas_Aurelia

Well you make a valid point BUT I think she is being tsun-tsun and dere-dere at the same time making her the perfect tsundere. The kiss is a perfect example, she really wants to kiss him and does so (show of affection) but can't admit it so she insults him during the entire process (bitchy tsun-tsunness)

poilk92 wrote:

I just remember from high school and freshman year of college this happening a lot, though the guys don't always realize they are doing it, and it is basically a guy acting tsundere but over a very brief period of time. As a former douche bag I can confidently say that girls eat that sh*t up, though women will just call you a douche bag. Anyway I digress, even if you don't consider tsundere the female badboy, which I don't either, the attraction can still be very similar, though I consider it more akin to the attraction to jerks.

I have no idea why you keep bringing stuff like this up. Sorry pal, but your personal experiences amount to nothing on an anonymous internet forum, which on top of that is about anime characters. Maybe they would if you're a woman who likes the type and explains why, but that you are not and have selfishly taken their opinion as your own. You should try to understand that real people are more complex and not as easy to read as fictional characters, which is why you shouldn't mix the two. Other reason is that talking about completely subjective experiences with total strangers around the mudball is way too unreliable. When we are talking about a common hobby, we both have something in common to reliably refer to. Stick with that if you can.

As for similarity in affection, well many sort of affection is similar in bare bones. Would you say that liking Alucard or Kenpachi is similar to liking Kaname Chidori? Perhaps no. What about Vegeta and Rei? Close, maybe. Itou Makoto, the lord of harem leads? He would probably make the best reference to the subject, but hasn't really got any dere-dere qualities. Just a hedonist who is unable to feel affection to another.

Psycho 101 wrote:

I simply still am at a loss to those who vote for these characters as the greatest characters ever or think they're so wonderful. Guess I'm just getting old.

I've never seen such votes, but if a character is well written all is good, no? I'm at a loss why people think that these new shows are the best thing ever, voting uneventful 4-koma shows over shows with actual script. If you ask me, it's probably about looks.

So some here are lax about defining tsundere and some refuse to acknowledge one of the most defining characters as being one. Polarized to say the least.

This is just me personally, but not all tsunderes are boring or overused. I think, in the end, for the tsun-tsuns to work, they have to be paired with an interesting lead.

Take Vash, for example. Meryl is a very blatant tsundere who naturally develops that weird love for Vash? What does Vash do? He doesn't give a shit. He's got bigger things to worry about.

Or Mikoto and Touma. Granted, Mikoto isn't just going tsun-tsun every week over him...she's more or less trying to flat out kill him deader than dead, but given his immunity to pretty much everything, I'm just taking it in as tsun-tsun. And much like Vash, Touma pretty much just doesn't give a shit.

Reason why I think this dynamic works is, because in most cases, the tsun-tsuns fall flat on their faces in all respects which works well for the funnies.

That was my two cents.

ailblentyn wrote:

Are you actually counting Kyoko as tsundere, or saying that she's part of the prehistory of tsundere? If you actually use tsundere as a label for Kyoko, I think you're extending its meaning beyond how some are using it here. Kyoko does not have an initial reflexive hostility to Godai or icy mask that needs to be melted (whether once or ad tedious infinitum); the burden of change to avoid their relationship misunderstandings is all on him to get it together, isn't it?

Actually, Kyoko's a so so case.
If you look at her reaction to him in general, she's just as hapless as he is in expressing her love.
But she's quite more distant when the other resident's are around, which can be seen as (pre-)tsundere behaviour.

At least everyone agrees that tsunderes in the mold of Zero no Tsukaima's Louise are the bane of anime.
Especially that nasty tsuntsun Kirino from Oreimou.

Barachem wrote:

At least everyone agrees that tsunderes in the mold of Zero no Tsukaima's Louise are the bane of anime.
Especially that nasty tsuntsun Kirino from Oreimou.

There are people who like those type of Tsunderes, me being one of them. I do like Louise mainly because she puts Saito in his place.

Kirinio is more of a Type B tsundere since she is only in tsun tsun mode with her brother and goth girl, and she is in dere dere mode the rest of the time.

I like tsundere, as long as there is a balance between tsun and dere. Shana, Taiga, Asuka, all good. But a tsudere like Louise will make me drop the series. Way too much tsun, bordering on pure abuse (and actually crossing that line once), very very little dere.

I liked Louise, I guess I'm a true tsundere fan Razz

Xanas wrote:

I liked Louise, I guess I'm a true tsundere fan Razz

Or a masochist.

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Enough tsundere already!

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Enough tsundere already!