Forum - View topicMost Improved Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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Group A-17
Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Piccolo Jr.,, Dragonball franchise Fakir I don't remember Piccolo Jr. very well, but nothing seems to indicate that he is stronger than Fakir. Group A-18 Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You vs. Eva Heinemann, Monster Eva Heinemann Sawako is not in the same league as Eva. She is in a series that drags on for too long and makes her character development quickly come to a standstill, as she has to remain oblivious to the fact that Kazehaya likes her so that the main characters will not get together too early. Besides, Sawako doesn't start as an unlikeable person. Yes, she is not liked by her peers, but that's because they don't know her and have a false impression of her. Eve, on the other hand, is undoubtedly a highly unsympathetic character who undergoes a great character development. Group A-19 Yukino Miyazawa, His and Her Circumstances vs. Taichi Mashima, Chihiyafuru Taichi Mashima I don't know either, so I'm voting for Taichi Mashima, who seems to be the better choice, but feel free to convince me otherwise. Group A-20 Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop vs. Clare, Claymore Daikichi Kawachi Mainly because I watched Claymore in the past and after around 8 episodes I was completely uninterested in characters and the plot. It may be that this sort of series are not my cup of tea. |
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CrowLia
 Posts: 5505 Location: Mexico |
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Group A-17
Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Piccolo Jr.,, Dragonball franchise Fakir I'm not familiar enough with DB to vote against Fakir, who changes so substantially. I voted for him last round and my reasons stand, he went from being completely despicable to my favorite character in the show. By the end, he accepted who he was and decided by himself who he wanted to be and how he could affect and change the story that was meant to be Group A-18 Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You vs. Eva Heinemann, Monster Sawako I just empathize so much with Sawako's slowly coming out of her shell and figuring out her way through the world. Yes, she received a lot of help, but her never giving up attitude and always trying to give her best, even if the circumstances were completely against her make her so endearing and easy to simpathize with Group A-19 Yukino Miyazawa, His and Her Circumstances vs. Taichi Mashima, Chihiyafuru Taichi Mashima I have very fuzzy memories about Karekano, but I don't recall Yukino's growth and maturing process being really part of the anime, I'm pretty sure that came along more in the manga. Either way, I was impressed with Taichi growing from a prepotent, spoilt bully to a young man with a set of goals, and who has a passion for something, and will give his all for it even if success won't come to him as easily as he was accustomed to. For me, his declining to be moved to A Class without the proper qualifications signifies how much he's matured and his own determination to achieve his goals through his own efforts. Group A-20 Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop vs. Clare, Claymore Daikichi Kawachi While Clare's progress is undeniable, I'll give my vote to Daikichi because his growth is so unique, and he himself is a character with a unique story who slowly learns the hardships of being a father and the sacrifices that it entails, but also the joys that come with it, becoming a much more responsible man and finding fulfillment in his dull adult life. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6532 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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This is a change. I've seen all but one of the anime in this round, the one exception being Dragonball.
Group A-17 Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Piccolo Jr.,, Dragonball franchise I think Fakir is one of the top two contenders. His improvement is significant, moving and convincing. The write-up for Piccolo Jr isn't going to sway me. Group A-18 Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You vs. Eva Heinemann, Monster I'm going for Sawako Kuronuma. Eva Heinmann's transormation came out of the blue - so much so that I didn't believe it at first. It was so convenient that I wondered if she was faking it. In any case, it could be seen as just another example of her fickle nature, which, in itself, suggests she hasn't really improved. Group A-19 Yukino Miyazawa, His and Her Circumstances vs. Taichi Mashima, Chihiyafuru Sure, Taich improves, but it's not particularly notable. Yukino Miyazawa's improvement is dazzling in its entertainment and thoroughly convincing to boot. Group A-20 Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop vs. Clare, Claymore As much as I love Bunny Drop and the character of Daikichi, I feel that he is good from the very beginnning - it's just that his better nature has never had the opportunity to shine. I agree that he grows in his role as a parent but it still isn't as awesome as the way Clare restores her very humanity. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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I hope everything's okay with Dorcas_Aurelia. I've never seen the mini-game results delayed like this :/
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18212 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Usually I do my votes during downtime at work, but through a series of odd coincidences I've had much less downtime than normal this week - hence the late votes.
Group A-17 Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Piccolo Jr.,, Dragonball franchise Piccolo belongs here, without a doubt, but the character transformation that Fakir undergoes is one of the most impressive in all of anime. He doesn't just go from being a semi-bad guy to a good guy, or from being an unlikable character to a likeable one; he actually has to learn an entirely different way to be a hero over the second half of the series. Group A-18 Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You vs. Eva Heinemann, Monster This is one of the the few match-ups this round where I haven't seen more than an episode of either series. Based off comments last round and this round, though, I am finding Sawako's improvement to be more compelling. Group A-19 Yukino Miyazawa, His and Her Circumstances vs. Taichi Mashima, Chihiyafuru While I'm not convinced that Yukino is a strong third-round choice, I find it quite interesting that both votes for her are from people who have clearly seen Chihiyafuru. Since I haven't, I'm trusting their judgment. Group A-20 Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop vs. Clare, Claymore Here I have seen both and rated both fairly highly as series. Daikichi is a very lovable character, and what he does is admirable, but while he does change, I am not convinced that him learning how to be a father is that great an improvement. His decision to take in Rin showed him to be a caring individual from the very beginning and we don't see any evidence that he has been irresponsible before coming to care for her; in fact, the nature of his job suggested that he was quite responsible. The supposed uniqueness of his improvement isn't enough to overcome the fact the he did not improve that much. Clare, OTOH, does improve quite substantially, and some of it is handled more subtly than the series is typically given credit for. At the beginning of the story Clare is practically an automaton, just traveling around and carrying out her duties while looking for a chance to get revenge. Her interactions with Raki start slowly but surely start opening her up emotionally and getting her to care about others, in much the same way that she did for Teresa as a youth. (And the nature of that role reversal - i.e., that she is now being helped in a way that she once helped another - is rather unusual for anime.) It starts her down the road to seeing that there may be something else to live for than revenge. Granted, she goes into a lull on this for a while, and granted, she does take her shot at revenge when she gets it, but that she gets talked back from the brink - in effect, she gets convinced that revenge is not worth permanently losing her humanity to accomplish - is a major turning point which totally reshapes her as a better and stronger character at the end of the series, and in a way that I found immensely satisfying. And let's not forget that she escalates from being theoretically the weakest of the Claymores to one of the premier bad-asses of her Organization over the course of the series, too, including learning several new fighting and power use techniques. And, well, someone who has long used a Bunny Drop avatar voted against Daichi, so that should also say something. 
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Aylinn
Posts: 1684 |
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I don't think she was faking it. I will try to explain how I see it. I think that Eve fell in love with Tenma, who was the only person that loved her and not her money, but due to her upbringing and the fact that she was spoiled by her father, she turned into an unlikeable person who made a stupid mistake and dumped Tenma. She tried to make up with Tenma, but he obviously refused to return to her. Her reaction to this fact is understandable, if you take into consideration her upbringing. A spoiled woman who probably was never denied anything in her life suddenly finds out that she will not get what she wants. From that point her easy life has come to an end. And this period of her life when she is miserable is very important to her future change. At the beginning of the series she claims that not all lives are equal. I imagine that if anyone had done something nice for her or even saved her life back then, then, taking into consideration her world-view and upbringing, she would have taken it for granted. After all, she would probably think something like that. 'I am a daughter of a rich director of a hospital, in other words a woman of certain importance in the world. Why shouldn't someone save me?' But during the period of misery she discovers that people will not fall over themselves to please her and this realization enables her to properly appreciate what the guy who refused to kill her have done. I agree with Ggultra2764 that initially Eve is with Tenma, only because of his promising career, but I think that Eve truly fell in love with Tenma at some point of their engagement, because it nicely explains many things. Why was she so obsessed with Tenama for so long? Why didn't she move on? Why did she want to return to Tenma? Yes, his career went back on track, but why would she care? I didn't seem like there was a shortage of promising or rich people who she could marry. (And she married some of them later on.) And there is also her relationship with that guy who eventually saves her and her conversation with Tenma after all of this. (I will not get into spoilers here) That's why I think she really loved Tenma, but her moment of realization that she did was, unfortunately for her, belated and came when their relationship was damaged beyond repair. I hope my post is understandable, my thoughts were very messy when I was writing it. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
Posts: 6532 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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@Aylinn,
I think your argurment is a perfectly valid one. In any case, whoever wins of the two isn't likely to survive next round against Fakir. When there are two seemingly close ranked, yet very different, opponents such as Sawako and Eva I tend to concentrate on what are, for me, the clinching arguments. Yes, Eva's improvement is dramatic (and I would explain her motivations along the lines you have) but something about it didn't quite gel for me - Monster didn't quite make its case for Eva convincing enough. Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You also has its shortcomings but the overall development of Sawako isn't one of them (although she regresses inexplicably in the early parts of season 2). Anyway, if people accept your arguments in favour of Eva, I'm happy with that as the two contestants are closely matched. Both deserve to have got this far.
I've become quite fond of my avatar. I like the way she's turning her head, the expression on her face and the way she's (seemingly critically) casting her eye over my post (I reversed the original picture to create that effect). I've had a few avatars before settling on Rin but I now fully intend to stick with her. |
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Maidenoftheredhand
 Posts: 2633 |
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I am not voting because I feel I don't have time at the moment to fully participate (maybe I will in later rounds) but I had fun reading everyone's responses. Still I really want to put my two cents forth anyways (and I was told this was allowed).
I think the two best participants in this round are Fakir & Taichi I don't really have to defend Fakir because he is a favorite to win. As for Taichi I am happy he has gotten as far as he did but I think one thing that will go against him (and I've already seen it in a couple responses) is his story is not over yet. It is very true that Taichi may take a step forward in his development and then a step back but I don't think we can hold that against his character because the fact that he is not perfect is what makes him such a fascinating character to begin with. So yes it is true that Taichi takes steps back but he is constantly trying to improve himself and become a better person. His whole character arc is centered around the fact that he was told growing up to only try things he knows he is going to win at. Despite that Taichi keeps playing karuta even though he knows he might not be the best, because he doesn't want to give up. As for Taichi's issues in the 2nd season in terms of his self confidence, it's true it's a flaw he needs to overcome. But the point is while Taichi still has a lot of improving to do (because his story is not over) he has still improved tremendously from when we first met him: from the kid who would steal Arata's glasses so he had a chance at winning, to the teen at the start of the series who said he would never be as good as the top players so he might as well not try, to finally someone who despite losing and disappointments doesn't stop playing and never tries to take the easy way out. One of the best scenes of the series is when Taichi refuses a free pass to Class A and says it's not about getting to class A but about "becoming a person who doesn't run away". I like Yukino a lot too (in fact she is my favorite thing about Kare Kano) but I don't think her character development comes even close to Taichi's and her story is over. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16939 |
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As did I. All my semi finals picks are gone already. Sigh. Vote later. Busy watching hockey right now. My caps just tied Buffalo and it's off to OT. My gf is from Buffalo so she's not happy now. I might be sleeping on the couch. |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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The unofficial Sunday tally:
Group A-17 Fakir, 9 vs. Piccolo Jr.,, 1 Group A-18 Sawako Kuronuma, 5 vs. Eva Heinemann, 5 Group A-19 Yukino Miyazawa, 3 vs. Taichi Mashima, 7 Group A-20 Daikichi Kawachi, 5 vs. Clare, 5 Very low on votes again this week, though the long weekend probably had something to do with that. We've got two matches tied though so definitely there is reason for people to forget about the chocolate for a moment and come on down to vote 
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ccdx
 Posts: 312 |
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Group A-17
Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Piccolo Jr.,, Dragonball franchise Never really liked Dragonball that much, although I've seen quite a bit of it. Piccolo does have some positive character development, for what it's worth. But Fakir's development is far superior. He goes from being a mean spirited over protective loaner who hates Ahiru/Princess Tutu, to in the end realizing and accepting his role in the overall story to help Ahiru/Princess Tutu and Mythos defeat "evil." Group A-18 Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You vs. Eva Heinemann, Monster Seen both series. Gonna have to go with Sawako Kuronuma. Man oh man is she a bad character in the beginning. Super shy, self-loathing, self-doubting. She wants to make more friends but has no clue how to. By the end of the second season she is vastly improved, although still not quite all the way there. She gets my vote for now, but not sure about next round. Group A-19 Yukino Miyazawa, His and Her Circumstances vs. Taichi Mashima, Chihiyafuru Taichi Mashima may not be the greatest most developed character he can be in the beginning of Chihiyafuru, but he's not that bad either. He seems a weak choice to me. Voting for Yukino Miyazawa. His and Her Circumstances really revolves around her development into a better person and by the end it shows. Group A-20 Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop vs. Clare, Claymore Voting for Clare. Going from mindless killing automaton to caring compassionate protector clearly beats the weaker credentials of Daikichi Kawachi. If you want a very good explanation, just go read Key's post. |
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rosebrook11
 Posts: 1181 |
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Group A-17
Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Piccolo Jr.,, Dragonball franchise Since this one doesn't appear to be close at all, I'll leave my reasoning brief. Fakir and Piccolo both start their series with an antagonistic edge and become more heroic as the series progresses. However, it's only Fakir who improves to the extent that he is able to open his heart completely to those close to him, while Piccolo remains aloof up until the final episode. Group A-18 Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You vs. Eva Heinemann, Monster Both of these women improve a great deal in their respective series; however, the do so in completely different ways. I'm giving my vote to Sawako because shyness is not something that can easily be overcome. She goes from being completely clueless on social matters to being able to form some of the sweetest friendships I've seen in anime. Group A-19 Yukino Miyazawa, His and Her Circumstances vs. Taichi Mashima, Chihiyafuru Before the tournament started I thought that Yukino would be a very strong competitor as I had seen the first episode of her show and was excited to watch her improvement. Now after seeing more of the show, I'm not as convinced that she's as strong a competitor as I once thought. Most of her improvement takes place in the first few episodes and then she remains in her 'true' personality for the rest of the show. That doesn't strike me as the gradual improvement that I believe this tournament serves to reward. I love Yukino as a character, but I don't think she should progress any further. Now I agree with Maidenoftheredhand that Taichi is one of the strongest of this round. Since I've made many many arguments about his improvement, I'm going to talk about some ways Taichi has improved in the second season. In the elementary school flashback, Taichi is jealous of Chihaya's new friendship with Arata and he acts rashly because of this. In some of the more recent episodes, Chihaya gets distracted multiple times when she infers from someone elses conversation that Arata might be at the tournament she's at. At these moments, Taichi reminds her that she shouldn't be thinking about Arata, and he does this NOT because of his own crush on her, but for Chihaya's own sake. Taichi wants Chihaya to win her matches and not to be distracted by her surroundings. Taichi is the one that proposes that the team allow Chihaya to play the ace of another school so that she can get the best experience from the match, rather than have their order give the team an easier way out. Group A-20 Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop vs. Clare, Claymore Somebody last round mentioned that the area that Daikichi needed to improve the most in was his impulsiveness. Taking in Rin was an impulsive act and at the time he had no idea about the effect it would have on his life. Throughout the series he makes many sacrifices in order to care for Rin properly and become a much more thoughtful character. |
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One-Eye
 Posts: 2261 |
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Group A-17
Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Piccolo Jr.,, Dragonball franchise Voting for Fakir, Princess Tutu. Fakir without a doubt. Its not just how he grows from a possessive controlling freak, but how his growth is managed and executed in the story. Group A-18 Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You vs. Eva Heinemann, Monster Voting for Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You. Based on comments from mow123 that Eva's change was a little "forced" and errinundra stating that it "came out of the blue" or was "convenient". I generally don't care for those type of changes in characters they often aren't very convincing to me. Group A-19 Yukino Miyazawa, His and Her Circumstances vs. Taichi Mashima, Chihiyafuru Voting for Yukino Miyazawa, His and Her Circumstances. Last round I said that Taichi's development was still ongoing and that it was problematic for me to vote for him for this reason. I said that his motivations could be called into question. In a recent episode the new female member points out that she wants to get good at Karuta so that Taichi will notice her just as he wants to get really good so that Chihaya will notice him. I said I just don't think Taichi has been tested in what really counts. Can he love both Karuta and Chihaya or is his interest in Karuta only because of Chihaya? Can he continue to play Karuta if he was to be rejected by Chihaya? Those questions haven't been answered yet. I also said that we have yet to see how Taichi will behave when Arata returns. Well, funny enough we have started to see some of that answered in the latest episodes. Whenever, Chihaya texts Arata or talks to him on the phone Taichi gets depressed, angry or jealous. This is something that he is going to have to deal with and it may get worse before it gets better when Arata makes a full appearance. Will it affect his playing and the rest of the team? Possibly. I agree with what others have said that his growth sort of plateaued along with his skill in the game and at this point he may be starting into a downward slide depending on how the show handles his latest frustrations. Group A-20 Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop vs. Clare, Claymore Voting for Clare, Claymore. I finished watching Bunny Drop this week and I'm going to have to vote against my mini-game pick here. I think that Daikichi is growing into being a parent. He is learning some things especially from some of the other parents around him. I can see people choosing Daikichi as the more heartfelt choice, it is an adorable show. However, I think the show ends a little open ended. Most significantly, we don't see the conclusion of Daikichi's growth as a parent. Rin's mother gave her up for her career yet we still see her have some maternal feelings for her daughter. Will she return someday to try to reclaim her? How would Daikichi deal with that? We see how other parents struggle to raise their children and the serious sacrifices and compromises they have to make. Some of those Daikichi has yet to face. I think because of where the show ends Daikichi's development into being a parent is not complete and is still in the early stages. I chose Bunny Drop for the mini-game based on the popularity of the show, but now having seen it I think that Clare from Claymore has the upper hand with a little more variety in her improvement. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Ridiculously late results for group D2 minigame.
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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What, you mean it's still possible for me to come first?
Hah, fat chance. Just put me down for last place 'kay thanks. |
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