Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2006-07-28]
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GATSU
Posts: 15317 |
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Zac: At least you're consistent. My comment was because I remember back when the show was just fansubbed, and a person in a chat room was joking about the trend in Japan moving from big breasts to little girls with animal prints on their underwear, which I assume was a reference to CCS.
But anyhoo, thoughts on Kite? And of course there's the issue with that bathtub scene in Totoro which I still read about on IMDB as making certain viewers jittery...Actually, I've also heard people becoming awkward in that scene in Grave of the Fireflies where the brother and sister are sleeping next to each other, and the sister pushes him off. Apparently, Oshii also plays up the incest angle. But I guess your point is that a Ghibli or CCS is harmless, because it's not meant to be prurient, even if it can be interpreted that way. Still, I am interested to know what you feel about Kite. Last edited by GATSU on Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:04 am; edited 7 times in total |
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jaybug39
 Posts: 552 Location: Oregon, Is it FOOTBALL yet? |
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I was disturbed by your opening piece. Which I take it, was exactly what you were trying to do. I remember posting about Elfin Lied that I was uncomfortable at the part wherespoiler[we are watching animated 13 year olds taking a bath.] It concerns me more as congress just passed a law concerning cartoons of underage persons. Sorry to not remember more, but I think I read it in the newspaper. Maybe it was the Druge Report.
I suppose I am safe in that I rent before I buy, and that Netflix will take out any titles that would cause a person to break the law by viewing. |
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RabbitRevolution
 Posts: 218 |
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Hmm, as for the lolicon thing...well, lolicon still seems pretty popular in Japan right now, since Japanese companies are still producing those lolicon shows that the fansub group mentioned in this column was subbing. Anime fans are naturally going to want to glom onto whatever's popular in Japan at the moment, and some anime fans have become obsessed with one popular otaku cultural element, lolicon. It's a sick obsession, yes, but the problem's not going to be solved by telling American fans to "cut the crap." The only real end in site is going to be when the Japanese companies stop producing lolicon-esque shows or publishing lolicon manga due to a diminished demand from the Japanese otaku. American lolicon fans won't be able to get their fix from Japan and/or won't see it as popular anymore, and many will move on.
I guess the other problem is that the Japanese seem to be more discreet about their hobbies. From what I know, there is some controversy in Japan over lolicon shows/manga, but obviously the entire animation/manga industry hasn't collapsed due to a lolicon scandal. Loudmouthed American fans who enjoy lolicon are another matter entirely. |
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HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
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I won't argue about Ichigo Marshmallow and Bottle Fairy, but do you think Negima is any worse at the lolicon factor than any other harem (or even non-harem) anime or manga? |
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Lyrai
Posts: 173 Location: Potatoes (Idaho) |
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In Negima's defense, they aren't all 10 years old. Some, but not all.
Although that's sort of like saying "Well I may have shot him, BUT IT DIDN'T KILL HIM!" I really think it would help the lolicon bit if the stuff isn't licensed by american companies, in my opinion. Tokyopop should have passed on Strawberry Marshmellow, Genon should have skipped Bottle Fairy, the Strawberry anime, etc, etc. Good lord, the Strawberry Marshmellow manga has panty shots of the girls. That's just disturbing It is slightly unsettling realizing that they're being liscensed BECAUSE people are buying it. Just my take on it. |
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GATSU
Posts: 15317 |
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Lyrai: Well I don't think moe's caught on here the way it has in Japan. (Yet.) So I'm assuming the reason titles like Bottle Fairies get released is so that companies like Geneon can reach out to the vital tween market needed to sustain its company down the road.
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief
 Posts: 1684 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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I know you asked Zac, but I feel compelled to chime in here. KITE: I love the edited version to death, the uncut makes me ill. I'm disappointed in Umetsu that he would include scenes like that. But it's not that odd for anime creative staff to dabble in hentai to pay the bills... and in this case, making the show hentai was the only way it was going to get made. Not an excuse, though. TOTORO & GRAVE: I like how you clearly get Zac's point, but still feel compelled to bring up obviously-solved points in near-universally loved films that will get people riled up -- almost in defiance. I believe that's called "trolling". And nobody was even talking about incest. |
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GATSU
Posts: 15317 |
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jsevakis:
I don't really love either version, since Golgo 13: Queen Bee did it better, but supposedly Umetsu drew it for the money, and preferred the edited version.
Well I didn't intend to troll. I was just making a point that even if the rorikon wasn't around, people still have a tendency to put an unflattering label on anime fans based on how they interpret what would normally be considered harmless scenes. I mean look at the bs the religious right started over the effing Teletubbies and Spongebob! How do you deal with those kinds of naysayers? |
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Wolverine Princess
 Posts: 1100 |
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I like shows like Bottle Fairy, Strawberry Marshmallows, and Pani Poni Dash not because I'm "turned on" by them, but because they're just so cute. I like moe for the big heads, the giant eyes, and adorably innocent characters; not the "pleasures" of watching five-year-olds sit with their legs open on the floor for a peek at their panties. The feeling I get from shows like Bottle Fairy is identical to watching fluffy white puppies chew on bunny slippers.
What's your beef with Bottle Fairy and Strawberry Marshmellows? Sure, there's a single episode of Bottle Fairy that has the girls modeling swimsuits, but both of those shows (especially Strawberry Marshmallows) are quite tame, and although the target audience for both of them is adult men they're as clean and family-friendly as anime gets. Have you even seen these shows, or are you just basing your opinions of them on what other people's fanfiction says? What's really the scum of loli anime is stuff like Today in Class 5-2. I felt extremely guilty watching that, and knowing that someone out there is masturbating to this made me die a little inside. (And I'm aware of the excess fanservice in the Strawberry Marshmallows manga, but I'm only talking about the anime.) |
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arxane
 Posts: 447 |
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Excellent column; the loli answer hit the nail on the head (if not flat-out buried it).
My only "complaint" is that Answerman chose to put the Naruto rant in the same column, a Naruto rant that makes perfect sense in an internet filled with "OMGZ TUNAMI BUTCHORED NARUTO!!!!!1" fanboys that most likely didn't even watch the dub. Legitimate criticism is perfectly alright, but no one has a justifiable case for needlessly complaining about the American version of Naruto, especially compared to the miserable One Piece dub. |
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Ranma824
 Posts: 456 |
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Yeah....I'm sorry but if we're going to call lolicon out, at least do it with shows that ACTUALLY HAVE suggestive themes. Bottle Fairy is nowhere near loli, it's a cute show about culture. The same for Strawberry Marshmellow, cute and very funny. I dont know about the manga, but I cant imagine it being suggestive enough to be considered loli. Hell, might as well add A Little Snow Fairy: Sugar while we're at it. Why stop there? Let's just totally ban that type of art style from ever being used! That'll solve the problem
 . I hate it when fans go on their personal "crusade" and try to dismiss a show for their own agenda. (Hey, it kinda looks like loli, so it HAS TO BE). Actually watch the show before using it to purge the world of "evil".
You want loli-suggestive themes: try Rizelmine. |
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MTierce
Posts: 33 |
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Without really touching on lolicon itself, there are a couple of things I want to say. Zac, you said that you thought that there was very little difference between someone liking lolicon and someone liking child porn, suggesting that they are in fact almost indistinguishable. I can see where you're coming from, but I think something just doesn't feel right with that statement. For one thing, anime is a highly stylized art form. No one would confuse an anime character with a real person. Things that we find attractive for an anime character, if applied to a real person, might garner a very different reaction. Therefore, on a purely visual level, I think there is a vast difference. Secondly, from a psychological perspective, a think there is a possibility of a large difference, even though this many not be true is all cases. Take BDSM, for example. Many people like to role-play rape. From this, could we reasonably extrapolate that such people wanted to rape someone, or conversely, to be raped? I think it would be a stretch to make that assumption. I think it is a stretch to equate a fantasy with the desire to actually commit an action, and that is why I disagree with your statement.
Now, the other thing I want to mention is this:
This argument is raised a lot. It sounds reasonable and logical, however it has zero evidence to support it. The same argument is raised about violence in media desensitizing people to violence. There is very little evidence to support this as well. I can make a logical, reasonable counterargument: That the existence of lolicon provides an outlet for potential abusers, and thus provides an opportunity to deal with dangerous impulses in a legitimate way. This goes against the conventional American wisdom, but it is just as plausible as the first argument. The fact is, without evidence, both are pure conjecture. The problem is people tend to latch onto this as being true, as if "feels" right to them. In reality, this is simply fear mongering. It is as much fear mongering as the whole myspace controversy, where parents worried about child exploitation over the internet, when in reality it is proven that the vast majority of abuse is committed by family or a close friend. This clouds the issue and makes reasonable decision making more difficult. Reactionary thinking costs us all, please take the time to vet information you hear, especially before you repeat it. It's sad how many people take rumor for truth. |
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Wolverine Princess
Posts: 1100 |
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I've heard stories of upset parents at the episode of Spongebob where the gang found a "sentence inhancer" graphitized on a garbage bin and proceeded to use it in every sentence (with noises like dolphins chattering and horns honking "censoring" the word), but I've never heard of any religious controversy surrounding Teletubies. A link to an article where your claim can be verified would be appreciated. I’m looking for one, the only thing I can find on people that think the Teletubies are bad news are reports on China's ban on live-action/animated television programs. Last edited by Wolverine Princess on Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Haterater
 Posts: 1727 |
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There is already some claims with the MySpace stuff already: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myspace#Legal_issues I believe that there is a possibility that some evil pedo out there is using lolican because he can't find his "real fix" and just settle with that. If he were to be caught and it turns out to be a big story, I don't want to even think of how the media will latch on to this. Media is mostly off with anime anyway. 
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GATSU
Posts: 15317 |
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Wolverine Princess:
Enjoy. |
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