Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Welcome to the Ballroom
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CrowLia
 Posts: 5505 Location: Mexico |
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Just because a lot of shows are flopping doesn't make it any less bad for each of them individually, and certainly an estimate of less than 1000 units is nothing short of a tragedy, especially because Pony Canyon is at the top of the committee. With such poor returns in disk sales, they wouldn't have much reason to make more of it, and people keep saying that this first season will barely make it to the appearance of the game-changing characters so...
A lot of your argument reads like you don't even understand the fundamental problems the people have with the show and you're just bashing "haters" for the sake of bashing people who don't like your show. The issue isn't that the dance scenes are short, in the anime they certainly aren't. The two main dance features so far (Hyodo's tango and Tatara's solo waltz) were 4 and 13 minutes long, certainly not "short". The problem is that they're padded with flashbacks and audience pans and full of still shots that don't really serve a lot of purpose in making the audience engage with the actual dance for the reasons lossthief explained
I mean, Virgin Soul and Kakegurui both have had more interesting dance scenes than those in Ballroom, and both shows are animated by MAPPA, so I'd venture saying maybe they could've approached this with a different perspective that made the dance scenes more entertaining and beautiful. Of course the production team at I.G. seems to be very passionate about the project, so why the director decided to focus so much on not showing us the dance is something I'm very puzzled about.
Again, you're not even bothering to understand the problems people have with the show, you're just insulting people for the sake of having a different opinion (it's also pretty classy to say "haha everyone has their opinions except if you oppose mine you're probably triggered easily" :eyeroll:). The problem regarding the moves is the complete opposite: we get them named over and over but we rarely see them. There is no flow to be interrupted by explanations because more often than not, when the dance moves are mentioned we're looking at the audience, so we have no idea of what the hell they're even commenting on. I want to actually see the dance and understand why it's amazing, showing me twenty shots of spectators saying "That's the overlay whisk step!! Amazing!!" isn't helping me with either of those. (I'm aware that's not an actual move, I made it up on the spot)
Sengoku is supposed to be a World-class champion, he wouldn't be able to become such if the rules in Japan in regards to judging were so radically different. It's like saying "Oh Japanese basketball must have different rules, so kicking the ball with your feet is probably allowed there"
I mean up to episode 4 I was overall meh on the show, I certainly wasn't watching with a checklist and a stopwatch ready to condemn it since the first episode (I was actually very hyped by the OP the first time, I really liked it), but watching episode 4 and Hyodo's "intense" tango the first time it started rubbing me the wrong way that it felt we weren't ever seeing the actual dance as much as we were listening to people commenting on it, that's when I decide to rewatch and check with a timer to see if maybe it was my perception or if the show was indeed abusing the tell over show. Likewise in episode 9 I'd seen a lot of gifs and positive reactions but after watching it once again it felt like we were getting too many flashbacks and audience pans in relation to how much actual dance there was, so I watched it again to confirm. The results were unfortunately way more discouraging than I anticipated
I don't know about getting canceled, but I remember a distinct trivia about Kuroko no Basket in which the mangaka had Kuroko use a tecnique that involved punching the ball with his fist, which is not allowed in basketball, so it was later corrected to thrusting it with his palm. Kinda funny how a show that had characters shooting lightning from their eyes and literally divinating the future seemed more concerned with keeping to the basic rules of its sport |
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lossthief
ANN Reviewer
 Posts: 1395 |
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^Sorry if I sounded like I was singling you out with that line. I don't think you're doing anything unfair in trying to quantify just how little time is spent with the dances in the context of the episodes, and you've given a lot of helpful numbers to point to for discussing the show's animation.
I just meant that, unlike what Thorfinn implied, people aren't going in intentionally trying to find fault with the show, or searching out nitpicks to justify their judgment that the show's bad. |
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Galap
Moderator
 Posts: 2354 |
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I don't really understand why this series in particular has become so contentious, but it apparently has. You guys really need to turn it down a notch in here with the ad-hominems.
This is the second time I've had to step in here in this thread and calm things down, and the first time at least 15 posts were deleted. I don't want to |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11367 |
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It was nemuyoake who said it first, I just agreed because I was thinking about Ballroom the whole time I was watching that dance and wondering why Ballroom couldn't do that too. |
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CrowLia
Posts: 5505 Location: Mexico |
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No problem, just wanted to clarify in case someone actually did think I came in with the intention to nitpick it to pieces from day one or something. It almost feels like I have to reiterate every single time that I actually wanted to like the show and it was one of my most anticipated ones before , and up to episode 5 I was willing to wait for it to get better like everyone kept promising it would but that just never materialized :/ |
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CrowLia
Posts: 5505 Location: Mexico |
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An interview with Anime Herald has confirmed the Ballroom producers just didn't trust the audience would like the old-ish ballroom music so they misguidedly decided to use "popular" songs instead. A true shame that the creators have so little faith in the sport they're showcasing and their audience. Maybe if they'd taken the risk and used the "old" music to enhance the dancing itself instead of running away from showing anything at all, the audience would've been captivated and the show would be more successful. It looks like they chose to play it safe instead and this unsatisfactory production is what we get as a result.
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Princess_Irene
ANN Reviewer
 Posts: 2610 Location: The castle beyond the Goblin City |
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Thanks for the link, Crow Lia - I've put it in this week's episode review as well. That's really disappointing to hear, and I'd agree with your use of the word "misguided" - ballroom music says so much that it enhances the dances so that you can really feel them. While it does sound like there was dance research done, I wish someone had given them an appreciation class, or maybe a history one.
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Animechic420
 Posts: 1727 Location: A Cave Filled With Riches |
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I couldn't help but noticed the art style for this episode looked a little weird.
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Whitewolf55
Posts: 12 |
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There was definitely a dip in the art and animation department this episode. |
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AksaraKishou
Posts: 1410 Location: End of the World |
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Outsourcing does that. Thing's crumbling and they just went with a Fu*** it cause spending more time on this episode means that others down the line would get even more behind schedule. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11367 |
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While watching episode 10, I got the distinct impression that the reason we don't see much animated dancing (outside of the OP and ED) is because the animators are afraid to. At every "wow" moment the camera cuts to audience reactions to tell us it's awesome, actively avoiding having to animate it. A few dance lessons and some tapes isn't enough to educate them thoroughly about why/how it looks beautiful, so they don't feel like they can get that across in animation since it's still somewhat foreign territory to them. I don't think their budget has anything to do with it, and it doesn't quite feel like just money-saving shortcuts.
The interview kind of supports that. Almost all of the animated dancing focuses on dramatic shots of feet and hands. However, there was quite a bit of dance animation of the children, because if it doesn't look fabulous, well, it's because they're children. It's not as intimidating because it doesn't have to look splendid. This was a pretty decent episode, aside from all the usual problems. Learning more about the characters doesn't make me dislike any of them any less, but at least it was interesting, and I felt some emotion for once, instead of wondering when it was going to be over. |
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gumbaloom
Posts: 265 |
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I won't go in to huge amounts of commentary but if you want the gold standard of sports anime look at Yawara.
That was sports anime done right and still plenty of room for drama off the Judo floor and PLENTY of detail including all the judo moves in lots of detail. I was really wanting to pay out for the JP Blu-rays for this but as someone who has taken ballroom dancing medals and classes in both the UK and Japan ... - the sparse use of traditional Ballroom music - The slapdash approach to the detail and somtimes outright incorrect facts - Yes the lack of animation is disappointing but even Yawara had a lot of still frames but then again it was 20 years ago - you would expect better now. (BUT there is one big diference - when it was a judo match it was 100% concentrated on the match no random out takes / spin offs) Has really put me off wanting to drop over 60,000 yen on the six discs. This is a shounen drama with teen angst with a ballroom dancing backdrop through "rose tinted glasses" but a sports anime it is not - a sports anime has the detail in bucket loads, is authentic and get its right 100% of the time in the facts department. Don't get me wrong I'll still watch it it's enjoyable but this is not in the same league as Yawara (which I paid out over 100,000 for the JP blu-ray boxes for..) so unless it serious ups it game I won't be buying till a cut price box is released in a few years if at all. |
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Songster01
Posts: 73 |
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This is sad, since my hopes for interesting music and striking dance animation were two of the things that made me try the first few episodes. I was holding out hope that maybe, just maybe the climax episodes might include more of both. Anyone paying attention to the reception of YOI would know that fans are not allergic to the kind of music that would appear in a ballroom series. YOI had a very successful eclectic soundtrack, from rock riffs to opera and orchestral music to big band and flamenco-like instrumentals. The staff of BeY have underestimated their potential audience to the detriment of their own show. They really needed a personality more like Sayo Yamamoto's at the helm, with the passion, bravery, and backbone to stick closer to the reality of a dance-based sport. Welp. maybe someone will someday try to animate Dance10 if it progresses further and will heed and learn from the problems of this production. That would be more up my alley anyway, since the story is centered on adults rather than teens. |
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CrowLia
Posts: 5505 Location: Mexico |
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I'd like to feel at least a little satisfaction from the minimal character development in this episode, but even that feels like it's just adding on to the problems in characterization rather than fixing them. For instance, the writing is trying to make us sympathize with Gaju, completely sidelining the fact that he was a literal ass to Mako in every given opportunity, calling her everything from a burden to a washboard. I predict he'll realize how amazing Mako is and that, because for some inexplicable reason she wants to go back with him in spite of the constant mistreatment, he won't even have to apologize for what he did. Likewise, with Shizuku questioning her own motives and suddenly changing her motivation from "being upset at Hyodo for not trusting her" to "feeling she's not good enough for Hyodo" basically shifts all the blame of the conflict onto her, leaving Sengoku and Hyodo completely free of guilt.
As far as the dancing... *hopeless sigh* I'm not even going to bother timing the amount of animated dancing, I doubt I'd come at more than 30 seconds even though the episode featured three and a half dance sequences. At this point I'd be actually surprised if we actually got to see anything of Sengoku's "so amazing" Quickstep variation. I thought we weren't seeing any movement in the Tango and Slowfox to save for it, but even when that started we didn't get much beyond still frames and more still frames. Oh, and audience shots, can't forget those after all. I'm fairly certain we have more actual time in audience shots than actual dancing shots even counting still frames. Also RIP the "consistency" of the animation, the amount of off-model shots was pretty insane, there's a moment in which Shizuku's face looks like it's melting |
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Chrysostomus
Posts: 335 |
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Ballroom is a pretty crappy show. Most anime are made to sell manga, but absolutely nothing in Ballroom makes me want to pick up its source material. It's not even pretty to look at, the characters are deformed giraffes with creepy smiles and odd-looking lips. There's no sakuga, no interesting direction or aesthetic, there's nothing. It's the most tired and soulless execution of shounen cliches but with some amazing DANCING! that you don't get to see. If I want shounen tropes with a gimmick, I'll just stick to Soma. Last edited by Chrysostomus on Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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