Forum - View topicNEWS: ADV Films, Geneon USA's Distribution Deal Cancelled
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16935 |
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HOw is someone supposed to take responsibility for something that hasn't even been proven to be their fault? I'd be the first to jump on the "I don't wanna pay for anime because I deserve it" fansub community but only when/if it's shown to us they did even play a part in it. And by shown I mean official announcements from geneon or an employee and not opinions and assumptions. They say that was indeed a problem I'll be happy to watch people light torches and sharpen pitchforks but not until then. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Actually, I would say Geneon's sales figures would prove neither. It might prove that releases are infact failing miserably. However it says absolutely nothing on why. It will still all be speculation just as it is now. The only difference is that it would confirm/deny that Geneon is dropping out to poor sales and not some other reason. Perhaps Zac meant that it would open peoples eyes to the fact that the industry is really struggling? Then again, he said earlier that he thought that people were taking this too far saying this was a sign that the industry is in trouble. |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Copyright issues on dvds, etc are often the land of the FBI Dedicated little headbanger that I was in the late 1980's, when I started seeing more & more dealers selling cassette tapes that were obvious bootlegs at the biggest swap meet in the (then) 7th largest cith in the US, I called the locak FBI & reported them. The first time I called, they were completely uninterested--asked what my interest in it was (seeing the bands I like get thei just pay). I got some line about they were more interested in movie copies (Hollywood). I gave up for a time & tried again a uear or so & got a pretty similar response. Maybe the anime companies HAVE tried to deal with law enforcement on this & have hit the same wall. Sadly, most government agencies aren't made out of money, so they often pick their battles. It really depends on what the departmental focus is at any given time. in the first part of this decade INS wasn't all that interested in deporting illegals who committed small crimes here. THen 9/11 happened & now we have liasons we call who will gladly deport almost any convicted felon illegal. We even saw a bunch of our guys locked up a couple yrs ago as they processed deportation hearings on them (certain countries aren't usually deported-like Cuba)
The comment dealt with magically increasing money so one coul buy everything one needed, even wanted. My issue is the idea a lot of people here seem to have of anime as a necessity of life. Why did you pick food as a comparison? (&, in fact, I'll argue that one for 2 second. IF you are starving & are "copying food, no, mo one would complain, but IF you have adequate means of attaining a decent supply of food & are using your secret food-copying art to copy specifically....say McDonald's Big Macs & you're passing them out in the name of equality for the masses, I think a lot of Americans would question your communist-like actions, Or say you're copying caviar-same thing) Air, food, water-necessity. Arguably clothes, shelter can be included (unless you want to live in the wild somewhere that would allow one ot forage for one's food & one could go naked or clothe oneself in the materials one comes across/makes oneself) Put yourself in the place of the makers of this stuff. Would YOU like it if someone took something you made without compensating you? One is paid for one's work, otherwise it's slave labor. One can't even argue the whole communist thing because they're about sharing so these artist could, in a perfectly fuctioning system, expect a bit of your work coming their way. Not only are you benefitting from the labors of these artists without proper compensation, you are refusing to participate in the proper channels they are functioning in expecting their compensation. You are dealing with people who have no right to the material (fansubbers "anime should be free!") distributing it to the masses when the artists obviously have selected to have their property licensed to a company in this country who will send funds back to that artist. The argument is if everyone were pursuing this course, Companies like Geneon & CPM may not have hit the point they have. No, every fansub doesn't equal a dvd sale, but conversely I still say more people would buy the product. If Anime downloader A suddenly lost the ability to download (we're not talking bored nothing else to watch types, but fans), that fan might discover s/he wants to see title F more than s/he thought when downloading it & would choose to netflix it or maybe even buy it whereas as a downloader s/he may have only bought titles A-E. I don't download. I'm not made out of money. I read descriptions, watch trailers, read manga to decide what titles I need to buy as they are released individually & which I can wait for a box set on, as well as which don't appeal to me. If it airs on tv, I'll probably watch it to see if I like it, but considering I have over 2000 anime dvds, I don't need to see every fricken anime made. That's 2000 dvds bought without downloading. How the hell can I figure out what I like while buy it & thousands of downloaders can't figure it out apparently without "previewing" an entire series? How do the rest of of who don't download manage? IKillChicken- Sorry if it seems I picked on you, but it seems there are a lot of people out there thruout this pointing to Geneon's titles (PARTICULARLY the harem titles aimed at us gals) as a reason for their problems, but they do have good titles. Guys may not have any interest in the harem titles, but they must have sold somewhat because Geneon dropped their major male harem title (Tenchi), but has pursued the gal line (Fushigi Yugi, Saiyuki, Kyo Kara Maoh, Shonen Onmyoji, Saiunkoku). As a gal, I'm used to our tastes being discounted-American comics for years have basically ignored us (assuming we'll buy what the guys buy) which is why manga has turned everything on it's ears. The accepted rule-girls don't buy comics, they buy girl stuff-make-up, etc-flew out the window as gals started buying tons of manga compared to number of gals buying American comics. A couple yrs ago at Comic-con it was a major force as guy after guy at panels asked "Will you license "XXXX" or "ZZZZ" & I believe it was the Del Rey gal who finally said that the industry was standing up & taking notice of the females who suddenly appeared. The Comicbook crowd is something of a niche market (geeky?) & sales come from stealing the sales of one's competitors while the manga revolution's miracle was it actually brought in new blood(females buying comics). I've seen the comment more than once from retailiers that gals come in, grab what they want, pay for it & leave. Yeah, there are the manga cows-the equivelent of the teen downloaders "I'm a teen with no job so I can't buy anime so I download it even though it's licensed" crowd. A lot of the yaoi crowd just buy their stuff online rather than buy it in a store. Gals do buy anime & manga. Just because guys don't buy feminine napkins doesn't mean the product doesn't have an audience. Same goes for everything. There are guys who buy yaoi. There are girls that buy yuri. I may not buy yuri, but I would never say Seven Seas sucks or deserves to do poorly because they decided to license some yuri titles. (I say thank you, now maybe the guys will stop whining about our yaoi as much) |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Quite simply? No, I'm not willing to accept that because you are very far from proving it's part of the problem. The numbers and all the other data simply isn't present enough to really argue this point. You brought up a few numbers but they weren't backed up with significant sources and you used download figures as if download figures can be matched to direct sales, even though we both have to know it doesn't work like that. So even if I believed your numbers the interpretation is very lacking. But I digress, and I will have to agree to disagree with you on this subject. I think you may not be able to do that since you are calling everything you say "fact" but hey whatever floats your boat. |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Come on. people. Is it so hard to figure out why sales numbers are a closely held secret? Do you open your checkbook up for the world to see? Do you air your dirty linen in public? Do you run around gloating "I'm doing incredibly well" making people hate your snobby ass or "I'm lousy with finances & am practically bankrupt"? Why broadcast to the world how well or poorly one is doing? So Japanese compnies can say "Hey-you sold 10,000 copies of Magical Girl Loli. We want twice as much for the sequel" As for the licenses, it's simple supply & demand + greed. There was a time when they were, according to those in the field, farly cheap because no one thought there was an interest. Then you get 3 companies bidding for one title & of course Japan is going to notice & start upping the numbers. And when the bubble burst, of course Japan isn't necessarily going to buy it. At the time they were saying Toei was asking so much for One Piece 4Kids or someone who could get it on national tv could afford it. MediaBlasters said they'll be lucky to break even on Goddesses by the time the license expires just because they felt the needed an "A" title, but Votoms was doing so well, they didn't need such a title this yr. We've seen them do more sub-only releases. Frankly, if they want to bring over all the harem titles I've been longing for, I'll gladly accept sub-only releases. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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If I were expecting people to make judgments or assess whether or not to help me, then yes, I'd "air my dirty linen" as you put it. Besides, I'm also an individual not a company. But if I were asking you to make donations to me then I'd definitely make sure you were aware of why I needed that.
(quick aside here, I'm having huge problems posting/editing in the forum for some odd reason, long periods before page refresh on post, but I can view fine? It's odd). I put myself in their place all the time. I don't think either of us disagrees with the other on this particular item. The difference between us would be how we perceive that such things should work and how payment should occur. I happen to believe that copyright/licenses/etc. is not a really good system because it makes the false connection that "copyable" things are the same as any physical object. In any case, due to the fact that the current system is completely impossible to enforce (without a police state) we are where we are now. This will not change. So in my mind it's far better for us to figure out how we can work with the way things are now and provide reasons/etc for people to be supporting what they value most. I absolutely value my time and I want to be paid for my work. And, when it comes to anime, I don't treat those who make it any differently. I buy a substantial amount of anime (which I've detailed a few times in this thread already), at least for my level of income. Where we differ is on our beliefs concerning those who do not pay. I believe that most of them do not pay because they cannot afford to pay, or they don't value it as much as they value other things (and are thus unwilling to pay regardless). You believe most of them (or at least a large minority of them) are willing customers IF they couldn't get things for free. I don't think the area of contention here is something that's easy to have a conclusive discussion on. But where I have no disagreement is on the matter of paying for what you value, and supporting those who worked to create it. On that I couldn't agree with you more. I don't know why you thought that I did not? I have not and never would state that people should not be paid. Last edited by Xanas on Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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So we semi-agree.
But is it that copyright is unenforceable or technology is just allowing people to "copy" more" Knock-offs HAVE always been an issue-fake paintings, near miss names, etc. We had a popular shain of Mexican restaurants here called Roberto's & by the mid 1990's we had several "knock-off's--Alberto's, Jilberto's Adelberto's, etc--companies hoping they could fool customers into driving theru & trying them out. We had a place here called Sak's Thrift Avenue until Sak's 5th Avenue tooj them to court. Fading star trying to hitch a ride on a rising star. Cloning fashon styles. Movie trends. It's really all part of the glomming on to someting else. Fansub groups get traffic to their site thru their subs. That traffic can translate to an ability to advertise which can help offset their time & money. Makes it seem a tad less selfeless. Yeah, you're a private citizen so your info is private, but aren't a lot of these anime companies also private? Don't you think if they published how well they were doing in comparison to their competition, they might fear their license costs could go up. Yeah, Funi's doing well, but if the Japanese companies they deal with knew how well, don't tyou think they might hold out a bit for a higher price? Yeah, someone like CPM which is probably dead but hasn't let us know yet (but we haven't seen several releases that were due from Be Beautiful at the end of July) might benefit from the Japanese licensors knowing they have no money, but the better off competition probably wouldn't appreciate them getting speical treatment. And Japan is a different place from here. "Gifts" seem a common idea-So not only does one have the original deal, they have otehr things going. Biblos went belly up because of the owner's computer company going under & his apparently allowing Biblos to go under with it. CPM & other domestic yaoi publishers had deals signed with them, but Libre picked up Biblos's pieces & apparently decided everyone had to re-negotiate. They even insisted CPM which had contacts with Biblos was publishing titles here without permission. |
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Xanas
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I was under the impression from the previous discussions that industry insiders do have access to this information, so they do know how their competition is doing. Is this not accurate? In other industries (cpu sales, etc) there is information more readily available. I am not sure why this industry is different than that one? As far as all the bits concerning companies who hold licenses being screwy, I do see your point. I don't really know that there is much to be done about it though, and I believe that they probably do have these numbers that are hidden for us.
My concerns about copying weren't ever intended to apply to "knock-offs." Those who try to pass off something as though it's the original and act under the pretense that they are supporting the original artists/authors/etc, when they are just making money for themselves, are liars. I have no love for them at all. I am not attempting to defend anything about what they do. I do understand your attempt to take this principle and apply it to fansub groups, who are making advertising revenue, etc. I don't have the same issue with that because for one thing they are spending time doing something, and also they aren't passing it off and giving people the impression that downloading from them is a support mechanism. Of course we are going to differ on our opinions of that but I'm just explaining how for me these are 2 different issues. Also I've only watched 1 fansub and they have absolutely 0 advertising on their website. It's actually about as plain a site as you can get. Last edited by Xanas on Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Nabeshin
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Whoa, easy there chief, you're gonna hurt yourself with the sarcasm there. The examples you cited are co-productions from anyone but Geneon. I said nothing about other companies co-productions, but about Geneon's library of Japan-only produced content, so your point is completely lost on me. Some of TP's in-house manga is rather good actually. Don't hate on all of it because of some horrible stuff. America doesn't hold the exclusive on bad manga-- Japan's got some atrocious stuff too in case you hadn't noticed-- about tenfold, actually. The difference between their previous anime catalog and Geneon's is that Geneon has product that people will buy and are currently watching. With that in mind, you already have a fan base pre-installed, not needing to build one. Plus, its not unrealistic to think that they could try again with said proven product.[/i] |
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Paploo
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Which'ld be great if not for the fact that a) apparently so few people are buying Geneon anime that they have to closeout their business, so that preinstalled fanbase isn't really much help and b) as mentioned, TP's been there, done that.
TP's original titles do include some great works, but they don't have the kind of infrastucture needed to take on an entire company's anime catalogue- the market has grown so small they pulled out a few years ago, despite actually having a small line of titles of good quality that did well initially like Vampire Miyu, Marmalade Boy, and bigger hits like Initial D and GTO. Even their book distribution is handled by Harper Collins, and they handed their online "official website" sales over to RightStuf, so they're pretty much just focused on creating and publishing content, and that takes a lot of resources. As big as TP is, they're not really the sort of company that could take this sort of thing on, and if they do have the resources, they've already had the experience of running an anime line, and know that it's better to concentrate on more successful ventures. They have to think of their bottom line too....... with the comic publishing industry as small as it is, a stable TP is much better then one trying to take on handling an anime company to please fans [sad, but true] tangently- a much wiser pick for that sort of thing would be another, more stable anime company. Manga Entertainment is a company which does a lot of coproductions, and has released a lot of their titles either simulataneously, shortly after, or before the Japanese release when it comes to OVA's/Movies, in addition to distributing the successful HellBoy OVA movies. It's also part of the larger IDT/Anchor Bay company Media Blasters is a small company that specializes in anime, but also supports itself with a diverse catalogue of live action japanese movie, and other specialty fare like horror. The thing is though is that these are both smart companies- they keep their release schedule for anime small, and with the size of the market in mind, and pick their titles carefully [Manga in that it goes for stuff with more mainstream appeal, and movie releases, and MB in that it focuses on niche titles like Geneon did, but goes about them in a cost-effective manner, with cheaper releases, and some sub-only titles, with less of a rush to get the biggest thing here first, and keeping an eye out for oddball acquisitions that'll do them well] The only problem- would it be a smart move to take on the catalogue and stock of one of the largest anime companies out there? I'm guessing probably not, unless you got a good deal, and given ADV's fallout with Dentsu, it's likely it wasn't a good deal for one side, or both. I suppose we'll have to wait and see. Last edited by Paploo on Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:32 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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It's unrealistic because Tokyopop specifically got out of the anime market when they made that deal with Funimation. Outside of their own original animated product, they don't license or release anime anymore. So yes while I guess we have to consider absolutely anything "possible", it is no "probable" nor does it make a lick of common sense to think that it's "realistic" to believe Tokyopop will suddenly buy up Geneon's inventory simply because they're both located in the same part of the country. |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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Actually, if I had to GUESS, I'd say the sales numbers are "private" because there is a company that commits resources to compiling those numbers so that they CAN sell them to industry people. If they just gave them out for free, they'd lose the profit for doing it. And since it is a company compiling those numbers, they sell the reports rather than giving them away. As for "competitive advantage" from having the numbers, maybe there is a TINY advantage, but really the Japanese companies can tell who the big players are, and some (not all obviously) of the companies ARE public, so people can dig into their financials. Maybe not the specific "per DVD" sales figures, but they can see whether a company has positive or negative cash flow. But on that, unless a company rep has an INCREDIBLE relationship with the Japanese companies, I don't see how "we don't have any money" is an ADVANTAGE. If anything, I think the Japanese companies would probably think the American company can't give it proper treatment if they don't have any money. (or do you think it's just "coincidence" that Disney has all the Ghibli titles?) That said, I have no doubt that "per title" DVD sales are down and probably pretty significantly. The degree and AMOUNT are pretty unclear right now, but I don't doubt that it's lower. I'd also wager sales are down across the board, I don't think Geneon's exact litany of titles has anything to do with it. I think the only company that would have a valid argument based on titles specifically (and in their case, for why they should be much higher than the opposition) is Shounen JUMP pusher Viz. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Again, these are all private companies, and even then, major, publicly owned companies usually don't divulge specific unit sales. They'll put out a press release that divulges how many copies something sold if they crack a million on the first day or something, but that isn't public information. You also really need to consider the fact that specific unit sales are actually none of our business. Again, we are not shareholders, these people are not elected officials, they don't have to answer to us and they don't owe us any of this information. Specific unit sales are need-to-know data, and none of us need to know. Just like the contents of my bank account are none of your business, the details of exactly what kind of sales these privately-held companies are doing is also none of your business. Being curious is one thing, but being nosy is another. |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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I thought Viz is basically just the American face of a Japanese publisher (like Geneon USA seemed to be). They do seem to have a better grasp of the American audience than Geneon did, but they seem to have little real control over their product-maybe their input-"no, that probably owuldn't do well in America"
Considering the cost to get those sales figures, would a Japanese company looking to make money selling anime pay anything to see those sales figures? It sounds like a deep dark secret. The Japanese mode of doing business is very different from ours. Have all you guys talking about Tokyo pop dvds ever listened to them? Yeah, the stories are great & there are some good VA's involved, b ut the dubs never did all that much for me. On GTO they used too few VA's for the various kid voices so the voices sounded strained at times as everyone came up with 20 different voices. Marmalade boy did nothing much for me, though the Japanese side was not all that stupendous, either. The argument over their prices is also rather moot. I don't know about you, but I learned long ago why settle for the store brand if I really prefer the name brand. If I want Hellsing, why would I settle for Ghost STories just because ADV is cheaper? ANd if I want Kyp Kara Maoh, the closest I can come is Princess Princess or Gakuen Heaven from someone else & they don't have Wolfram & his pink nightgown. Do you all actually shop that way? Yes, because their titles are more expensived, we all probably do more picking & choosing of what to buy now vs what to wait for a box on, but if you want NHK, do you really care who licensed it? Because ADV licensed it & not Funi, you'll refuse to buy it? Yeah, I know we all hope the titles we want will be licensed by the company we prefer dealing with (I've come to fear cheap-out from ADV as more & more of their dubs have issues for me, but there's always the Japanese track. It used to be Funi we all feared, wasn't it? DBZ treatment?) This is all just speculation at this point. None of us really do know the reason for this & it may not be that Geneons sales were all that bad as much as they didn't perform to the parent company's desires. It could be as much business decision & not operating in the red as we're all assuming. They may actually have some decent numbers, just not comparable to Japanese sales of these titles, thus the parent company wants out. The idea fan subs have no impact is like ignoring one's house is on fire, but the downloaders will never be convinced because they're getting what they want & the hell with everyone else. Look how long people have been arguing over the Kennedy assasination-one side will never convince the other. Geneon could just be the victim of a business decision to tighten the company belt by reducing overseas operations. |
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indrik
 Posts: 365 Location: yonder |
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The numbers are also private because most (all?) of the companies involved are privately held. Publicly traded companies have to report profits and losses to stockholders and a couple of regulatory-type groups; private companies do not. So if a third party went out of their way to compile the numbers, it would be a significant effort, and absolutely a product that they'd want to protect. I recall from the last time I was doing this that reports on a single sku could be bought in the neighborhood of $500, but that's going on memory and I can't find anything right now to confirm that. Take it for what it's worth, which is not much. Also keep in mind that the reasons any given company (either a distributor or a retailer) wouldn't want their sales data made public are similar to the reasons you wouldn't want your salary to be made public: it hurts their ability to negotiate, has the potential to make them look bad to people who don't necessarily understand their business, and generally isn't anybody's business but their own. For three quick reasons off the top of my head.
I have to imagine that anybody in the anime industry on both sides of the ocean has got numbers for their significant competitors- every three months when I sit in on a department meeting, we get sales numbers on our three or four biggest competitors, and have a nice talk about strengths and weaknesses and who is and isn't measuring up, all with donuts. But we're all enormous publicly traded companies, and I'm sure some of our upper management types are shareholders (or maybe bribe shareholders?) in our competitors just to get the stockholder reports. I can't imagine a Japanese company going into a potential licensing agreement without paying the money to find out what sales are like for recent similar titles released by the company they're talking to. I could be completely nuts, but in my (largely unrelated) experience, it's a standard practice. Also from last time I did this- I recall finding an article about InuYasha selling 800,000 units for the series, and Viz acting like that was a big deal. I remember finding 85,000 for the Appleseed movie, which was said to make it the best selling title that year. I saw other numbers which have contributed significantly to my views on this, but I can't remember enough about them to be comfortable reposting them without supporting links. Naturally, these numbers are two or three years old, so they don't say much about how the market is now, but still- we're talking in the mid to high tens of thousands for really popular titles. Sources on those two, though: Appleseed http://www.animeondvd.com/news/pr.php?pr_view=544 The Viz press lease on InuYasha is here: animenewsnetwork.com/press-release/2004-10-14/viz's-inuyasha-turns-in-impressive-sales-on-multiple-fronts Edit: Zac and CCS snuck in while I was googling those two sources. Now I look all silly and whatnot.... >.> |
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