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KabaKabaFruit wrote:

If Geneon is planning to go under and leave the Hellsing Ultimate releases at 3/10, I'll seriously be devastated. Even more so than the time FUNimation chose to cancel the single releases of the first season of Dragonball Z but that's another story altogether.
Actually, there is the possibility of FUNimation picking up the pieces. FUNimation seems to have great luck with anime and have repeatedly boasted about being the leader in distribution. I think more companies would be eager to go to FUNimation considering their excellent distribution methods (aside from Dragonball Z).

Picking up a handful of Out of Print Titles like Slayers and Love Hina is one thing, undertaking the entire catalogue of a 15-ish year old company is another. Even with Tokyopop's small catalogue, Funimation has only release 2 titles, with very other title up in the air, Marmalade Boy partially expired, and a few other titles expired licenses completely.

Funimation has enough to handle as it is..... it'd be nice if they could help out, but in the end, it still means less companies releasing anime, and less anime gettging released.

I do hope whatever happens, we will get the rest of Geneon's unreleased volumes in official DVD form from someone. But even the most optimistic possibilities still have decided downsides.

I leave tha game for about 9 months and come back to this!? What that hell is goin' on inside Geneon these days. Personally, I'd hope that dentsu aquiring them was a good thing and initially that seemed to be the case. Hell everything seemed to be getting better when Mitsubishi got in the stake (more content and possibly more capital), now they backed out. What's going on in those offices that obviously can't be told (okay, that was a dumbass question, but still). This news is truely disheartening for a former industry spectator like myself, not to mention, Geneon USA is my all time fave R1 licensor, distributor, *enter any other trait here* Are sales really getting so bad that dentsu wants to pull out of the game altogether. I guess I need to get back on my *somewhat* informant and spectator tip. I want answers... heh, answers we'll most likely not get.

The question that hadn't been answered in detail, which should be answered in detail, is:

Does that mean there will be no more Geneon titles on the shelves of DVD stores?

The strictly pro-moe anime I can understand. But what about titles like "When They Cry" and "Hellsing?"

Last edited by Paploo on Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:31 pm; edited 2 times in total

Porcupine wrote:

Besides, if they were having problems why did Geneon suddenly go berserk with licensing ridiculous numbers of anime titles in the last year? As I said, right now it feels as if they are responsible for 33% to 40% of all currently-releasing new titles (these numbers are not official, just from observation, but people have agreed with me that as of late Geneon USA had been going crazy with the amount of titles they license). Licensing so many titles puts a huge burden of responsibility upon them. It is their own fault if they go under now and I will have no sympathy for their company.

Probably because they had no idea this was happen. Probably because up until this point, they were meeting whatever expectations were expected of them, and were hoping their choices would mean an upturn in business.

All those people working for Geneon, negociating for those licenses, probably had no idea that this would be the end result. Mabye they though they'd be releasing less titles, mabye they thought they'd do more subonly [Maria-Sama leaked solicitation in Diamond, anyone?] and overseas dub titles to save costs, and more bargain rereleases to get more profits out of older titles........

"But Geneon USA the company will get no sympathy from me, just hatred if they abandon their customers and responsibilities. The same goes for anyone who works at Geneon USA who has power within their company."

But what about the people who abandoned their responsibilities to stop downloading the anime Geneon licensed and owned all rights to? I think Geneon's the less guilty party in the grand scheme of things.

Given the suddeness of both the initial announcement of marketing closure, ADV's deal with them, and the undoing of ADV's deal with them, it's easy to see that this is probably all sudden, unexpected stuff for Geneon USA. If this were a more organized closure, we'd expect to have more info....

Quote:

Piracy is a huge problem with the anime industry and I'll never disagree. But there are one or two other huge problems as well. In my opinion, one of them has always been the licensors (such as Geneon USA). In many ways they have performed inefficiently and made poor business decisions in the past. They need to author their DVDs to better video quality. They need to package their discs better (I don't want scratched-up discs with fingerprints all over, which has happened in the past from time to time with certain titles). They need to market their titles better. They need to understand the domestic market better and handle the fansub situation better (the rampant state of piracy in the USA is partially the fault of the licensors and anime studios as well, for failure to adequately pursue those involved). You can't blame everything on the piracy, is what I'm saying. The anime companies deserve blame as well.

But when it's piracy and lower sales that leads to costcutting moves by domestic companies, it's hard to place the blame on them. It's hard to keep up quality when the sales aren't there to pay for it.......I'm not saying they're super fantastic or anything [their Canadian SRP prices are higher then most companies], but generally, they put out quality, well reviewed product.

It's a chicken and egg type discussion, only the fact is, it's only recently we've seen any decline in Geneon's quality- while fansubbing has been eroding the market since YouTube opened a few years ago, and made it INCREDIBLY difficult for copyright owners to protect themselves by placing the blame on the users who upload materials.

And some parts of fandom's fierce, protective nature regarding their "rights" to download/pirate anime. It's hard to fight against bootleggers when doing so may piss off some of your potential fanbase. It's a lose-lose situtation ---- look at the negative reaction Bandai got when they release the Stand Alone Society press releases regarding this stuff. Or the Odex situation [whatever Odex's quality, it just shows how messed up fandom is. Death threats? Seriously unhealthy].

The way fans act MAKES it very hard to combat this. It's a lose-lose situation.

Now saying they're perfect, but we can't expect companies to do everything- we have to do our part too.

Even a lesser then average Geneon titles is a gazillion times better then the output of many non-anime dvd companies out there.

PS--- And I do agree with you- Companies and fans need to do more to get rid of internet piracy. The sheer level of pay-for-download, and freedownload websites and services makes it hard to combat this though, as does the attitude towards them.

Porcupine wrote:

Piracy is a huge problem with the anime industry and I'll never disagree. But there are one or two other huge problems as well. In my opinion, one of them has always been the licensors (such as Geneon USA). In many ways they have performed inefficiently and made poor business decisions in the past. They need to author their DVDs to better video quality. They need to package their discs better (I don't want scratched-up discs with fingerprints all over, which has happened in the past from time to time with certain titles). They need to market their titles better. They need to understand the domestic market better and handle the fansub situation better (the rampant state of piracy in the USA is partially the fault of the licensors and anime studios as well, for failure to adequately pursue those involved). You can't blame everything on the piracy, is what I'm saying. The anime companies deserve blame as well.

Quoted for truth. You really hit the nail on the head. Copyright is only as effective as you make it. Most companies often don't even take the five intern minutes a day it takes to go through and report bootlegs to eBay. At this point, if someone did get busted for piracy, they could argue that piracy for a given title is so prevalent and unchecked that the content is effectively public domain. They might not win, but it's becoming a more and more compelling argument. (The packaging thing is something that's a factory problem, and isn't really restricted to anime.) I've been saying for years that fewer titles need to be licensed and marketed more, and it looks like a few companies are actually starting to do just that. Or, at least publicly saying that they are.

Paploo wrote:

And some parts of fandom's fierce, protective nature regarding their "rights" to download/pirate anime. It's hard to fight against bootleggers when doing so may piss off some of your potential fanbase. It's a lose-lose situtation ---- look at the negative reaction Bandai got when they release the Stand Alone Society press releases regarding this stuff. Or the Odex situation [whatever Odex's quality, it just shows how messed up fandom is. Death threats? Seriously unhealthy].

That's true, but I don't think there are THAT many fans that a company needs to care about as paying customers that would fault them for going after a fansubber that's releasing licensed stuff. If that's what's stopping them, it's really cart-before-the-horse logic, IMHO. They also need to address, in a MAJOR way, the large time gap between Japanese air date and US accessibility, because that is THE main reason fansubs even exist. Again, some steps have been taken, but what is required is really a rethink of the whole model on which the industry runs. It won't come fast or easy.

But I digress. At any rate, I think we're all waiting with baited breath to see what comes next. This is turning into a real fiasco, and from what I can see, nobody is going to come out ahead.

Tyrenol wrote:

The question that hadn't been answered in detail, which should be answered in detail, is:

Does that mean there will be no more Geneon titles on the shelves of DVD stores?

The strictly pro-moe anime I can understand. But what about titles like "When They Cry" and "Hellsing?"

It depends- will Geneon go into hibernation and keep current titles available until licenses expire ala Central Park Media?

Will they sell their remaining stock to liquidators to cut their losses ASAP?

Will retailers hear about all this and decide to return their Geneon titles, or will the titles remain on shelves until someone picks them up? [this dependson the policies of the chain/store in question, and what distributor they got them from]

Will they revive their company, and continue to distribute their title,s and just release less newer anime?

Or will someonelse [or multiple someones] take over their old licenses, and slowly reprint their catalogue and finish off unfinished titles?

Also, depending on the specifics of the contracts for any given anime, a company might have to wait a few years before being able to resell the license, might have it locked away forever, or might be able to resell it right away.

jsevakis wrote:

That's true, but I don't think there are THAT many fans that a company needs to care about as paying customers that would fault them for going after a fansubber that's releasing licensed stuff. If that's what's stopping them, it's really cart-before-the-horse logic, IMHO. They also need to address, in a MAJOR way, the large time gap between Japanese air date and US accessibility, because that is THE main reason fansubs even exist. Again, some steps have been taken, but what is required is really a rethink of the whole model on which the industry runs. It won't come fast or easy.

But I digress. At any rate, I think we're all waiting with baited breath to see what comes next. This is turning into a real fiasco, and from what I can see, nobody is going to come out ahead.

I find ADV's turnarounds have increased lately, and Media Blasters quick, subtitle only releases work wonders- though I imagine part of it is japanese companies, who really should stop worrying about cross importation, and let US companies [who tend to license lots of titles while they're airing, or before they even air] release the DVD's simulataneoulsy with the japanese DVD release. The large movement against piracy within Japan recently, and Kazuo Koike's formation of an IP Protection group regarding international abuse of manga and anime creators products do show that Japanese creators are becoming more aware of the situation and how it affects them.....

Anime companies have to play their part too. If fandom and anime companies work together, mabye things will become a bit better.

I feel like such a doom sayer, but GAH, this news has gotten me far more worried then anythingelse ever has.......

As a retailer of said titles, I can tell you one thing that didn't help Geneon and that was their prices. They had the highest wholesale price of any of the anime companies and one of the reasons I only stocked a handful of their titles at a time. Funimation had the best prices for us, followed by Media Blasters. If I can't afford to put it out on the shelf, I can't sell it. To my knowledge, they wouldn't even cut deals with Best Buy, which sells a lot of anime these days. They hung themselves by their own noose.

Oh, man. This is really depressing. I'm hoping that things work out, but this does not bode well for Geneon (the company or anyone working for them) or any of the series they are currently releasing or have yet to release.

jsevakis wrote:

Paploo wrote:

And some parts of fandom's fierce, protective nature regarding their "rights" to download/pirate anime. It's hard to fight against bootleggers when doing so may piss off some of your potential fanbase. It's a lose-lose situtation ---- look at the negative reaction Bandai got when they release the Stand Alone Society press releases regarding this stuff. Or the Odex situation [whatever Odex's quality, it just shows how messed up fandom is. Death threats? Seriously unhealthy].

That's true, but I don't think there are THAT many fans that a company needs to care about as paying customers that would fault them for going after a fansubber that's releasing licensed stuff. If that's what's stopping them, it's really cart-before-the-horse logic, IMHO. They also need to address, in a MAJOR way, the large time gap between Japanese air date and US accessibility, because that is THE main reason fansubs even exist. Again, some steps have been taken, but what is required is really a rethink of the whole model on which the industry runs. It won't come fast or easy.

Going after the downloaders would probably be a bad idea for various reasons, but I don't think anyone that actually matters (paying customers) would have any problem with anime companies going after bootleggers and "fan"subbers of licensed material. Sure, there would be a lot self-righteous outrage, but (almost) entirely from people that never buy the legit products to begin with.

Quote:

But I digress. At any rate, I think we're all waiting with baited breath to see what comes next. This is turning into a real fiasco, and from what I can see, nobody is going to come out ahead.

Doesn't look like it. I usually try (not always successfully) not to jump to conclusions, but in this situation, it is hard not to. That said, there is still hope that the fans won't be completely screwed over. If Geneon becomes simply a licensing arm for Dentsu (as has been speculated, elsewhere if not here), then the closing of the production aspects may not be as bad (for the fans) as it is initially sounds. Since we don't know why the distribution deal fell through, there is a chance that Geneon will simply go with someone else, and everything will still work out in the end (again, for the fans at least).

jsevakis wrote:

This is turning into a real fiasco, and nobody is going to come out ahead.

You can say that again. I was pretty confident that when the news came out about ADV taking the helm over Geneon's public side, that would in turn be a net positive for the products that people buy. Not withstanding the jobs that people lost of course. But now this! It has me worried in a big way.

psycho 101 wrote:

Let's assume for a moment that Geneon just bows out. No one takes over their stuff. They just fade away into the sunset. What would happen to their titles they have acquired so far? Would they be up for grabs? Would they simply be stopped and started over somewhere new?Or is the company under contract to finish products they's started already?

This is a question that I would also like to know the answer too.

I know that contracts, just like in every other type of business, will vary. Some will be governed by time limits, in which just like a peice of land they are owned over certain period of time. By the same token though they should be able to be re-sold as well. I know some contracts also have clauses in them that if the buyer does nothing with the property over a certain period of time that the entire contract becomes null.

I don't know what kind is most often used in the anime industry so anyone with some clarification would be nice.

But the big question is, as psycho put it: If Geneon goes belly up rather quickly what is the most likely thing that will happen to the licenses they own? Particulally shows that are new or in current mid-stream release? Anyone with intimate knowledge of the anime industry who wishes to gives his or her opinions on this question would be greatly appreciated.

HitokiriShadow wrote:

Going after the downloaders would probably be a bad idea for various reasons, but I don't think anyone that actually matters (paying customers) would have any problem with anime companies going after bootleggers and "fan"subbers of licensed material. Sure, there would be a lot self-righteous outrage, but (almost) entirely from people that never buy the legit products to begin with.

They need to be going after the Southeast Asian bootlegs is what they NEED to be doing. Pirated DVDs steal away people who are at least willing to put down some money for a title.

Last edited by Paploo on Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

I think companies should start going after fansubbers.

Especially after stunts like Dattebayo's "arrest" publicity thing at a recent anime con [seriously, anime cons, why legitimize them by letting them host panels?]

Also, there's the elephant in the room of a certain OrangeNinjaFan site with over a million registered users, weekly constests for Ipods, and hundreds of licensed manga and anime titles being sold for download for a monthly fee, illegally. With scummy fake copyright notices.

Viz should take the kid gloves off, and sue the pants off both [which seem to both be based in the US/Canada]

Dargonxtc wrote:

But the big question is, as psycho put it: If Geneon goes belly up rather quickly what is the most likely thing that will happen to the licenses they own? Particulally shows that are new or in current mid-stream release? Anyone with intimate knowledge of the anime industry who wishes to gives his or her opinions on this question would be greatly appreciated.

What will PROBABLY happen, and has happened to a much smaller extent in the past, is that the Japanese rights holders will negotiate with Geneon/Dentsu so that any money owed will be waived or greatly reduced, the rights will be returned, and possibly product will be destroyed instead of liquidated.

Beyond that, the particulars will have to be arranged on a case-by-case basis. For the titles that are Geneon Japan-produced titles, they will probably attempt to find a new licensor. However, I don't know what's going on at Geneon Japan while all of this is happening.

So am I the only one wondering about this news item? There are no links to backing up information and the parties involved aren't talking (remember, the original announcement had a press release involved). So, how do we know this is actually happening? It's not that I don't believe what I'm reading per se but the timing of this seems strange (thought not out of the question) and the lack of more facts to back things up is a bit disturbing Confused

.

As to fansubbing - why doesn't anyone ever bring up the topic of the fans who exclusively rent shows? Where I'm at I get hassled because I buy shows not because I could be downloading them "free" but because I don't exclusively rent. Has anyone worked out the numbers for the rent only crowd? Because I think that would be interesting information to hear about.

jsevakis wrote:

...............and possibly product will be destroyed instead of liquidated.

0_o I guess it'd probably be a good idea to get whatever Geneon product we want ASAP.

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