Forum - View topicNEWS: GDH Int'l Head Condemns Illegal Anime Distribution
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
 Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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I think some people miss the point; our personal demands not being met does not justify the actions of fansubbing. If it really bothers you then drop your double standards and don't watch it.
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UtenaAnthy
 Posts: 694 |
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I would like to point out that smashing windows is dangerous and downloading files is not known for giving people flesh wounds.
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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Yeah that was a bogus analogy. He should hire a person to do that for him.
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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30% over what period? Did fansubs exist only after this period? If they existed during/prior the previous period it seems to me that it's difficult to really conclude anything. In order to come to this conclusion solidly you'd have to take a time prior to fansub existence with a similar size market and similar purchasing power (amount of disposable income). All of those saying fansubs are causing decreases in sales seem to be pointing to a recent downtrend of x% yet fansubs existed prior to this decrease, so why does it take affect now? Is the view that more former purchasers switched to getting their anime for free and it took them a few years to learn about this? I'd find such a thing very surprising. I've also heard different things that what you are reflecting regarding fansubbed shows. The word was that the more popular shows still do well but the mediocore ones do more poorly in sales due to fansubbing. But once again, how do we determine this over a short period when digital fansubs have existed for many years longer than the trends to which we refer. I think it is possible fansubs result in a decrease in sales, but I think it is very difficult without a lot of other numbers to come to a conclusion (amount of disposable income, competition comparisons, etc). In any case I'd support condemning "illegal anime distribution" insofar as it is referring to bootlegging.
Lets be honest, professionals make a lot of mistakes, and professionals are also not beyond taking easy targets and easy answers when there is possibly a lot more involved. I know you are convinced because these people are over our pay grade, but I'm sorry when the evidence is so unclear based on the details provided I'm going to question the conclusions reached. You have always based your own arguments on the subject around the whole "obviousness" of the detrimental effect of fansubs, which goes to show you expect very little in the way of solid reasoning or evidence to support the conclusion. You already believe it to be true, and pretty much anything like this just confirms you already-held views. Professionals are also not beyond this (Think of all the politicians and lawyers that make a great deal more money than you. Was it right to sue mcdonalds due to a lacking "coffee may be hot" warning?) Last edited by Xanas on Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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What tangible benefit is there to a company like Gonzo if its entire product line - not samples, not previews, but entire series at DVD quality - is being distributed online for free by unauthorized translators to virtually the entire market, with no advertising support, no token fee to watch, nothing at all going back to Gonzo? I mean, you're saying it's wrong to condemn fansubbing because you can't come to an absolute concrete 100 percent final conclusion that they're harming the people who actually make the shows, but what reason, honestly, would they have for not commenting on it or showing tacit - or even blatant - approval of it? |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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rankothefiremage
 Posts: 516 Location: Michigan |
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Alot of people don't know how to tell the diff with bootlegs, i find that every other month i have to chew out some young club member for buying a pos bootleg dvd, "no slayers has never been released in a 3 dvd set" and such, hell i tell them if their not going to by the REAL versions then either borrow mine, or just get fan subs, since at least then no pirate is making anything off it.
not to mention trying to track down older titles can be a pain, i once tried to get a used copy of slayers, off amazon, paid 60$ for it, and when it came it was a bootleg, sent it back and reported the guy, as a boot leggings slime ball. Later picked up the funi re-release of the show. Go after the real pirates, the ones who make money off this illegally. |
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james438
Posts: 19 Location: Iowa |
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Does ANN have any official position on this or anything relating to anime? If so is there any place I could read it?
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Keep in mind the following about these fansubs 1) They do not cost gonzo anything directly. The copies are made on the time of those making them 2) They do not cost gonzo bandwidth/etc as putting shows on TV does. The theoretical tangible benefit would be the people who buy who otherwise would not have known of gonzos product without fansubs. However, I admit this is theory. That being said, at least theory has many anecdotes to support it. Most of your anecdotes seem to have been fansub viewers who believe that they are owed anime, and I question whether such people would EVER buy it. If you can find me a lot of fansub viewers who switched from legitimate products (without obvious monetary/financial stress as a reason), I might be more inclined to take your view. In any case, I would prefer that they use a system which DOES provide advertising (and/or subscription) revenue but releases on the same timeline as the fansubs do. But for me they need to do this without DRM (linux is my primary OS), and preferably create a dub in a reasonable timeframe after that (I prefer dubs, though I will watch subs sometimes too).
Keep in mind the following 1) I'm stating my opinion based on what I believe to be true, namely, that fansubs provide more promotional benefit than they deter sales. 2) Hate to get off topic but I don't believe they can stop fansubbing anyway without more stupid laws. I hate to see stupid laws so openly condemning fansubbing is going in the wrong direction IMO. 3) I am not saying what they are doing is morally wrong or reprehensible, simply that I don't believe the action is one that will end up benefiting them. I think it will instead cause them a lot of grief and will not serve to achieve their objective of increasing sales. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Anime News Network has no official position on any issue. It is a neutral organization. Our staff members have personal opinions and often express them in the forums (like myself, ad nauseum), but those opinions in no way reflect the beliefs or attitudes of Anime News Network. |
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naruhodo569
Posts: 10 |
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I can see both sides of the coin here.
As a consumer, it's in my best interest to be able to see as much of a show as possible before deciding to buy it or not. There is a lot of stuff out there that may look good on paper, but doesn't translated well in the real world. That said, magazine, blog, and fan reviews can help give a consumer a better picture of what they are buying. As a producer, its easy to see that fansubs will cut into profit. I know a lot of people who watch fansubs but don't buy the DVDs or merchandise when it comes out in the states. Its unfortunate, and as a producer, you'd just hate to see that happen. However, it can also be said that these people (people who watch fansubs but don't buy) would never had bought it in the first place. Furthermore, even though these people don't buy R1 products themselves, they may show it to someone who will. I'm not saying this is the end all be all, but it is a possibility. Its also a fact of the internet. The RIAA is a lot more threating than the GDH head, and even though the RIAA is taking people to court right and left, people still continue to download music illegally. Its the way the world works now. People will continue to download fansubs as long as they are available. End of story. Personally, I really enjoy watching fansubs. It gives me a peak at the visual culture of another nation, and lets face it: I really like anime. I'll most likely continue to grab fansubs for as long as I can. That said, I've spent almost 1k on DVDs and merchandise this year alone- an amount I attribute to mostly to shows I've discovered via subs. Frankly, all the moral/legal preaching in the world wouldn't stop me from grabbing fansubs. I really don't care, especially because I know I'll probably end up buying a bunch of DVDs anyway. For a lot of people, watching anime is like a hobby, and they'll continue to support that hobby in anyway they can. |
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Mohawk52
Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Yeah but he's the president of an international business making and distributing anime where as you are just a guy (at least I believe your a guy) sitting in front of your computer believeing you know better than him. Last edited by Mohawk52 on Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:53 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Brand
 Posts: 1028 |
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First with the anime dvd sales being down I think there is a lot of factors going on.
I think fansubs are a large problem. How many times did you hear someone say I watched the fan sub so they are not going to buy the DVDs. I hear it all the time. I'm even guilty of it, unless it's something I think is really really great I don't bother to buy it unless I can get it for cheap. I do buy the really really great series as they come out though. I also think that anime is kind of hitting a plateau where at this point you are not going to get as many new people into it as you could a few years ago. And with the way the economy is, I think a lot of people put entertainment items like DVDs on the back burner first. If it comes down to food or anime, I think a lot of people would pick food. DVD bootlegs are becoming a bit of a problem. I was buying a lot of anime DVDs off of half.com and amazon market place for a while but it's gotten to the point where it's hard to fish out real legit items in decent shape. I've gotten "like new" dvds that were obviously rentals. But the big problem I've found is I'm getting sent bootleg dvds, sometimes they are really bad, sometimes not to so much. The people who send them swear they are not bootlegs, and for some people they my not be that observant to really notice. Forget trying to buy a legit anime dvd box set used that way. I pretty much gave up on buying dvds that way and I just shop for them at the rightstuf.com any more when they have sales. So people might buy a bootleg without really knowing it. |
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Unholy_Nny
 Posts: 622 |
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Best point made throughout this entire thread so far ^ I don't think anyone has been able to express that much knowledge in a single sentence. Or, to put it in interweb language, "lol" I'm of the position that fansubs are #1: illegal, and #2: wrong. I still watch a show or two occasionally, used to be in it big time. In the end, it helped me avoid mediocre/crap shows that I would have bought (Rozen Maiden, Shuffle[First DVD doesn't come out until next year, though]) or buy shows that I never would have even looked into. (Beck, NHK, Mai-Hime) Plus it's also exposed me to some shows that haven't been brought over despite being out for a long time. I'm dying to own He is My Master, REC, Dokuro-chan and Mahoraba on DVD... On the other hand, there have been series that I saw and enjoyed but didn't give the time of day when they got licensed. (Negima, Bleach) But I know for a fact that at least 90% of fansub viewers don't give a shit and either refuse to buy or just don't buy the DVDs. So, they probably do more bad than good, but I'll continue watching them. (Only one I'm interested in currently is Dokuro-chan 2, but that's about one episode every few months...) On a sidenote: The Anime Network online has already made me decide to get Pani Poni Dash on DVD, which I thought didn't look very good until I actually watched a few episodes. (Keep up the good work, ADV!) |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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(Partly facetious, partly serious) Mainly it comes down to three statements: " I am also the initiator of the Afro Samurai project and Witchblade" (I realize he prefaced this with other "credits" but honestly, I'm unimpressed by a guy PROUD of this. 
"even though interest in anime is GROWING much faster than other types of programming" I want to know what this is based on, these kind of comments are often bandied about, but never "supported" and if sales are down, what is it based on? Whenever I quote the change in attitude at anime conventions, I am often shouted down as anime cons don't "represent the bulk of anime watchers". "We’ll have to concentrate on safer titles which are aimed more at Japan market and also we’ll have to reduce production budgets so the quality of animation will decrease." OK, I get why the non-bolded portion is bad, but please explain to me why the BOLDED (especially underlined) portion is bad? This goes back to the first quote I noted above about how he's saying he's a big part of AMERICAN content made by Japanese studios. You want to tell me these people need work, ok that's fair. You want to tell me these people are losing work, ok, that is bad. But telling me that these people NEED to be developing things expressly targeted to the US market, sorry, those things are already going to Korea or China. Losing shows like "Witchblade" or "Afro Samurai" isn't hurting the writers, mangaka and in some cases, character designers and such that I really appreciate. OK, random animators feel the pinch, and I don't want them to lose their job, but that ship has already started sailing based on tweeners and such ALREADY doing heavy work for cheaper in other Asian nations.
I'm afraid I can't offer an anime analogy (as there isn't one) but the best "test case" currently is Radiohead with their new album that they released online for "name your price". According to Forbes, Radiohead's last album sold around 300,000 copies in it's first week. Also according to Forbes, "In Rainbows" moved 1.2 million units from their download in the first week. Other sources say they "sold" (ie. got money for) around 450,000 units for this album. That's a 50% increase in albums sold. (altho granted, not necessarily a 50% increase in profit) (Early projections put "sales" at around 38%, 38% of 1.2 million is just over 450,000. 38% figure comes from): http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2007-11-06-radiohead_N.htm (Forbes article noted): http://www.forbes.com/technology/ebusiness/2007/10/16/radiohead-download-piracy-tech-internet-cx_ag_1016techradiohead.html The USAToday article also notes the AVERAGE "per sale" amount was $6. Obviously some paid more, and obviously many no doubt paid much less, but let's assume a $6 price point would have had the same sales (probably lofty dream, but let's pretend). Assuming a CD normally retails for about $9 (which may be high nowadays, based on Amazon prices, but I don't buy CDs very often so feel free to correct me), that's a difference of $3/album. Previous album: 300,000 copies (in first week), assume $9/album= + $2.7 million Latest album: 450,000 copies (in first week), assume $6/album (average)= + $2.7 million ie. no loss at all (altho granted, no gain either). Of course, there are other factors like Radiohead made probably close to 100% of the $6/album profit and no doubt MUCH less of the $9/album take. And of course there are probably quality variations and taste differentials. And of course, in this example the prices were OPTIONAL, so no telling what it would be if fixed. BUT the free distribution CLEARLY increased the NUMBER of sales (even while decreasing the profit per sale) and IF Radiohead sees an increase in "longevity" due to the higher exposure, their overall profit should be higher (OTOH, if sales drop precipitously after week 1, then overall profit of normal sales might be higher, I dunno how their previous album performed). Point being, based on the snapshot of week 1, their overall profit was not HURT by the "free" distribution.
I comment on this only because it is a pet peeve of mine. Having spoken to a few anime directors, the JAPANESE release has the same benefit. (I got a wonderful discussion about how toys influence storylines and such) If the AMERICAN release requires DVD sales to recoup costs, that IS an issue for them to negotiate. I say this because whether or not fansubs are hurting the industry, SOME titles in recent years have fairly clearly been overpriced (in terms of license fees) because much like the proliferation of anime cons, companies did not realistically project demand of niche shows. I'm sorry, but I want anime creators to find work as much as the next fan, but if a US company pays $50 million (made up figure) for the US distribution rights for something like "Lucky Star", they ain't getting that money back, I don't care how popular it might be on the fansub circuit. Last edited by HeeroTX on Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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