Forum - View topicEditorial: An Open Letter to the Industry
|
Goto page Previous Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Michalyn
Posts: 5 |
|
|||||
|
I'm still trying to understand all of this and I hope someone more knowledgeable than me can answer some of the questions below. My apologies for the length in advance.
I started thinking of what was one of the first things mentioned in the article--what I'm calling "US Anime Industry Prehistory", that time which older fans seem to recall with pride when it was next to impossible to obtain anime and only obtainable through VHS of questionable quality. For some reason the "demise" of the industry has been repeatedly linked to the new generation's sense of "entitlement". I fail though to see how older fans were any less "entitled" than new fans are. We had a situation where there was a demand for Japanese anime but no US businesses to meet that supply. So people subbed - illegally (and unethically depending on your viewpoint). Yet, somehow people seem to be seeing demands for fast releases as a symptom of something bad compared to the good old days when people "waited their turn". But taking the Apple analogy, isn't this just an issue of efficiency--of one thief being mad that another thief was able to not only steal faster than him but to also grab a lot of iphones and distribute them to his friends? Well, if you're the slow thief it makes sense to welcome the industry doesn't it? Because no matter what they charge you, the opportunity cost for you as a slow thief is still higher. To the slow thief, the industry will always look like it's at a high point in its development simply because it can produce what he wants faster and cheaper than he can do it himself. What I'm trying to get at is there seems to be an assumption buried in the main article and on the parts of the "old" fans that there was a time when fansubs were not just a symptom of a complacent industry but that they served a noble purpose as an exposure tool or either represented such a small black market that they had no effect on the japanese industry. It's even been brought up a few times that while the fansubs might have started out as providing exposure, the American Industry has developed enough that fansubbing is doing more harm than good. My question is based on what? Is this just nostalgic nonsense for lack of a better word? If there is a curvilinear (think of an inverted U) relationship between fansubs and industry capacity (with a low number of fansubs at the very bottom on the left side of the curve having negligible effect on the Japanese industry; to both the quantity of fansubs and capacity/profits of the industry rising at the same rate(hence an emergence of an American industry); to a leveling off then a decline) then on what basis can we speak of the industry being at the peak of the curve when the very presence of a growing level of fansubs would indicate it is clear that it does not yet have the capacity to meet consumers'demands. There seems to be an assumption that the industry (not individual companies but the industry as a whole) has the means or can relatively easily acquire the means to "keep up" yet is being complacent. Yet, if we're still on the rising part of the curve (the glut of fansubs being evidence) doesn't that mean they have not responded because they cannot yet respond? They also wisely would not yet have any incentive to respond because while fansubs are growing as a result of their incapacity to meet all the demand, the market they are capturing is still leading to rising profits. In fact it would be a very foolish businessman indeed to try to prematurely capture the entire demand as it would probably lead to business losses until the industry as a whole could build more capacity. And the capacity would come from the profits generated at the point on the curve where both the amount of fansubs and the profits were rising. The other interpretation is that we've reached the peak of the curve and that all that's left is a downward slide. This is what the editorial seems to be arguing. But that would imply that we both have alot of fansubs and high industry capacity to meet demand (like the music industry is attempting to do through itunes (and lawsuits) and as microsoft has done with registering). I find that hard to believe though because of all the reasons listed in these posts such as the sheer time it takes something to be licensed (it seems unlikely to me that this can somehow be drastically sped up), the inconsistent quality of both subs and dubs, the need for dubs but the expense of providing them etc etc. I'm not saying that more cannot be done in terms of advertising and creative thinking but my larger point is business people are not dumb. Have we really identified the true issue here? What is it exactly that we are trying to get the US Anime industry to do? Can we be sure that these suggestions are not premature and if so based on what evidence? How do we know they will actually help what is actually a pretty young industry right now? All we have so far is some anecdotal evidence about some companies going under but this is part of the business cycle. Businesses even at their most profitable will always want to maximize their profits even more and so they always have an interest in elminating or vastly reducing black markets, but there is a very big difference between wanting to eliminate black markets for pure profit purposes and actually having the capacity to profitably do it. Microsoft can never get rid of pirated software but they have the capacity to influence it and change incentives without shooting themselves in the foot. |
||||||
|
||||||
BellosTheMighty
 Posts: 767 |
|
|||||
|
Jumping into a thread with 500+ posts without reading them first seems ill-advised, but here it goes anyway...
Pretty much everything Sevakis says is true, but his solution won't work.
That would shut things down and the stateside publishers might be able to get back on their feet. But it's a three-year solution, tops. In five years, the companies will be dead. Why? Well, what do you need to make a sub? You need a translator who knows what he's doing, the guys doing tech to put it together and get it to the net, and the marketing muscle. Which isn't hard to get, the way fandoms are structured- they pretty much know most everything before the first press banner ad hits. Which means, when the stateside companies find success with it, it's only a matter of time before the Japanese publishers decide to hire the translator, move production in-house, and cut out the American publishers. At which point, the entire American side of the market collapses. Some haters will doubtlessly consider this a good thing, but there are two reasons why it's a bad outcome- first, it's just a dick thing to do to them: "Hey guys, thanks a bunch. You helped make anime big in the states and brought the stories we all love out of obscurity! And now... *pulls gun* We have no further use for you.  *bang bang*" More practically, it puts us at the mercy of people half a world away who don't know and, depending on various factors, don't care about our support. I'm remembering Wal-Mart back in the 90's, who wrecked small-town commerce. They would move in, put small businesses out of business, then once they had virtually cornered the market, decide that they weren't making enough money and shut down the store. Leaving people to have to drive hours just to buy groceries. That probably won't happen to the anime industry, but we could well be thrown back into the early 80's, where we only had fansubs and overpriced imports.
Legal online distribution is a band-aid at best. The only true solution is to find a market that fansubs won't damage. That's one reason why I think american publishers have recently been putting lots of effort into improving the quality of dubs and securing basic-cable TV exposure- those markets are generally not affected so harshly, unless the US TV run falls well behind the JP TV run and fans get impatient. (Sadly, this seems to happen to nearly every shonen anime.) In particular, higher-quality dubs, and an increased respect for them among the fanbase, would go a long way towards keeping the industry alive. Which is one reason it's starting to annoy me that I hear the same voices time and again in every anime I see. But that's a rant for another thread... |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Talon87
Posts: 89 |
|
|||||
I know you just said that nobody has the figures, Vortextk, but if that's the case ... isn't it a bit shady that people keep arguing this as if they do have the figures? :\ I mean ... either don't make a claim you can't back up (and this isn't to just you!  I've read a few people piggybacking off of this idea ever since it was posted really early in the thread), or do back it up. All this cryptic "I'm right, but no, I don't have the data to show it" talk doesn't seem right.
|
||||||
|
||||||
britannicamoore
 Posts: 2618 Location: Out. |
|
|||||
You know, to respond to your first part i've asked this question many times. Why didn't the old school fans call it stealing or bite off the heads of those who didn't import the vhs from overseas? All I get is: due to the number of people and it being easier. Sure I don't have to go down to my comic shop, talk to the manager in code, and pay $20 for it to be mailed but still. Its just annoying. They were loosing money by you not seeing ads then, loosing money when your friend in Japan made 30 copies of the tape and losing money when yous at down subbed it yourself and sent it out. They made a legal way to handle the problem then by releasing the titles and they could do it now. |
||||||
|
||||||
Vortextk
 Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
|
|||||
|
I'm not saying NO ONE has figures, I'm saying the people that seem to have not said them.(Zac and whoever else) He said(or god it could've been tempest, this is a massive thread) they did not sell well(forgive me, not exact wording) and I will take it on good faith that he knows what he's talking about. We're also saying that "Selling well" will somehow equate to the amazing haruhi fever that spread over the internet when the show was initially released.
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
-Z-
Posts: 2 |
|
|||||
|
Michalyn, first off. I hate you. I don't want to have to think about economics outside of school.
Anyhow onto your questions. Why is fansubbing bad now compared to the "good old days"? Multiple reasons. 1. Lifespan. As the letter said, those VHS fansubs had several self-destructions built into them due to their very nature. -The number of times it could be used was limited -Duplications got progressively worse each time a a duplicate was duplicated 2. Quality. It was never possible to get fansubs at the anywhere near the quality level, and in some cases now above that level, of a professional release. 3. Production costs. Look at old anime vs new anime. Even accounting for advances in science and what not, the level of detail and quality has grown so significantly that more money is needed to pay for the costs. 4. Piracy I'm not talking about fansubbers. I'm talking about Japan itself. Japan, Korea, Singapore, etc. are so wired up it isn't even funny. We're talking about were 100mbs connections are the norm. Not the, by comparison, piddly 1.5mbs we have in the U.S. Think how much easier it is for pirates in Japan to distribute anime with those speeds. 5. Cost for Consumer Piracy ties directly into this bit. Japan is expensive beyond belief in all areas of life. Remember FLCL? When it was brought to the US it was a 6 episode series across 3 dvds at 2 episodes each. And at $30 each. Japanese otaku have to pay something like that on any given anime, if not more. Think how badly that kind of pricing must promote piracy. So production studios have already been losing money to that. And I've been told, mind you I haven't see a source for this, though I wouldn't doubt it seeing what's been happening with US distro companies, that this has resulted in increased liscencing costs for foreign countries. Unfortunately for them that really won't help them with fansubbing is so rampant abroad. Also if you still think that there really isn't a relation between fansubbing and sales at this point. Let's make a few assumptions. Average series length is 24, average 4 episodes per US dvd @ $25 per dvd. So $150 for an entire series. What rational human being would want to spend $150 on watching on buying an anime series when they can watch, as well as download, it all at similar quality level for free. Not to mention the lack of any immediate negative effects like having the RIAA sic it's lawyers at you. Couple that with the fact by the time the first dvd of a liscenced series hits the shelves the entire series, fully subbed, on the net for months. Do you seriously believe that that won't have a negative effect on sales? Perhaps Japan will find someway to solve it's own problems, but abroad in the US and other countries? The situation is going to remain bad until someone manages to get together a rapid delivery system running where people can watch for free. Obviously this will be ad supported. |
||||||
|
||||||
sarsman45
 Posts: 53 Location: an island "to the left" |
|
|||||
|
I totally agree with you Justin. Anime needs to come out faster into other countries otherwise the loss would be too great for the licensing companies (thats why fansubs are so much loved due to the quickness of speed). But even if there was a quick and easier solution to bring anime in, would it be able to entice those who torrent/download the fansubs themselves to support the industry?
I mean, sure people might buy the anime if it was a great show if it came here, but would they be willing to spend money to watch it again with about the same level of translations and sub-par voice acting (note: not all of dubbed anime have sub-par voice acting)? Last edited by sarsman45 on Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||||
|
||||||
|
britannicamoore
Posts: 2618 Location: Out. |
|
|||||
Or for a much cheaper price. Don't forget to add thin-paks into that equation. They haven't been mentioned here (that i remember...what w/35+pgs) but there have been many a time someone has said: i'll just wait for the thin-pak. What with it costing 3x less than that in some cases. Or even the full disc boxsets are cheaper than that around $60-70. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Michalyn
Posts: 5 |
|
|||||
LOL sorry. I applaud you for even reading through all of that. Your points are well taken. I think what I was trying to get at was that I do believe subs hurt the industry but has the US industry reached the point where the benefits of combating fansubs or dubs or whatever rationally outweigh the costs? That's why I feel we need more than just "good faith" assertions on the state of the industry. Also it seems that the solution most often proposed is to somehow bypass the US industry altogether andhave the Japanese companies release the anime for english-speaking audiences (since licensing takes so long). So is it that we're just trying to save the "source" market so to speak and are happy to get rid of US (and other) middlemen? |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Redd the Sock
Posts: 55 |
|
|||||
|
One of my business professors had an "off the books" rule about customers: 99% of the time they are uneducated laymen who, despite having no knowledge of your business, and / or little to no experince in your [or similar] industry will still have a long list of ideas they beleive your business should be able to do to provide a better product at a lower price, regardless of profitibility or feasibility.
Reading some of the recent comments about advertising for example makes me wonder. It isn't enough that ads are watched, they must be followed through on. If Anime Castle below advertises here, but no one clicks the ad, or those that do don't buy anything, Anime Castle won't advertise here, and ANN loses the ad revenue and the site risks shutting down (I've seen a few sites go down because people weren't clicking the banner ads). For many of us, ads are easy to ignore, especially if they're for things we don't want, which makes it easy to say we'd put up with ads if it means free stuff. This is the kind of idea that scares businesses, and rightfully so: the idea that for all people talk about what they'd be willing to do, when it's time to pay the piper, new excuses will crop up. I'm sure anybody in the entertainment industry looking at this thread would see a number of people say that they just want to sample the show, and then question how many would then come up with new excuses not to buy it. They fear that if they streamed shows with commercials, fans would still go to the fansubs to get copies of the show without commercials. That if you say you'll pay online for episodes, you still won't. This kind of things happens a lot online, from the above mentioned Haruhi whose sales never matched the online hype, to Snakes on a Plane, the movie that didn't break ticket sales, but was everywhere online the year before. :Make this movie and I'll go see it" [company makes moive] "nah, that looks like crap" Beyond that, some sugestions arent' feasible, getting anime on TV in a rapid pace for example would require changing, dropping, or ignoring any number of national and international copyright, distribution, and broadcast laws. Others make far too much of an assumption that all or the majority of fans are like you on issues ranging from subs vs dubs, litteral vs americanize subtitles, or even internet vs physical distribution. Supply and demand people: if dubs weren't wanted they wouldn't get done. A company as large as Disney delayed Princess Mononoke for months because fans demanded a japanese language track, smaller companies have far less choice to meet the demand of those buying their product. Which is the best point: BUYING. As in paying money for product. There's no point for a business to follow the demand of those that either don't pay money for a product or pay very little, they want to meet the demand of those spending the green. To a business mind, fansubs don't mean a demand for anime, but a demand for FREE anime which is a much different animal to market, as well as still being a niche one, so one can't expect the models for iTunes or Youtube to be 100% compatible. I'm sorry to bring this final bit up, but the debate about businesses always meeting the demand of the consumer base came up for debate in class once and the following question was used against those that felt that businesses should meet whatever their perceived customer demand was: There is a demand for child pornography on the internet. Should american companies produce and sell kiddie porn in order to meet this demand? Another less controversial one was: your boss finds someone willing to work at your job for half the pay. Do you now work at half the pay, or do you find another job? The customer is not always right, and while companies should be receptive to consumer demand, at some point the business has to put it's foot down and say I'm under no more obligation to provide you a product than you are to buy it. Is there room for improvement in the industry? Certainly. But any attempt to force a fansub style model on the industry will probably give us a fansub only industry as companies fold or close up shop. Just the random ramblings of someone that has been educated in business and earned his degree. |
||||||
|
||||||
Stefnick
 Posts: 48 |
|
|||||
|
I read some of the older post where people suggested to only to release sub only dvds to cheaper the product, but as it already been said, this won't work. I will tell you now, if there were only subs releases produced, I would not buy them. I'm a fan of dubs, sometimes I buy dvd just because of the American voice actor that's in it. I also think that just because distributors make the release date more recent to the airing broadcast and was cheaper that it will solve the problem. I see not difference between fansub and sub; other than legal and moral issue, so it wouldn't matter to me(probably to most people) which I received. The only reason I buy anime is for the dubs; if that was cut out of my opinion. I have only the two I mention eariler left. Which would I choose? I'm a patience person. I'm not in to that 'get it as soon as it airs Japan' attitude. I really don't care about wheather I get it within that week or within that year. Why would it matter to me if I waited a few extra week to find a fansub on the web. If I'm basically going to get the same stuff but one of them I had to pay for, I'm going with fansubs. I'm sure a lot of people will have this train of thought. So, fansubs will probably still be a problem. Let face it some people are cheap. As said before, it won't help to cut dub from the DVD releases; it'll more likely hurt it. And it alienates the majority of the current buyer who already support them, and has less choice than to buy dub which is not as easy to find free on the internet, though not impossible; for a group of people who ignore it before and may not actually buy it, even if under these condition. I mean if they hated the dubs so much why don't they buy the DVD and watch the sub. Answer: they don't want to pay for it. I doubt people who'll only watch fansub, will really that deciated to supporting the anime fandom to begin buying subs. Fansub are still a opinion; it'll always be free, intantly gradifing, and easy to obtain. I think I sounded abit choppy and rushed but I hope I got my point across.
|
||||||
|
||||||
Hon'ya-chan
 Posts: 973 |
|
|||||
This deserves a: 
I'm sorry, but unless I have proof (even a rough number would be okay) of figures, it's an uncitable argument.
God, going back to.... Anyway, look Zac, I pay for a movie. I don't pay for 15 minutes of a conglomerate of Ads and Movie Trailers where i'm not gonna like most of them. To me, I feel like i'm being cheated out of part of my ticket price, the snacks I buy, and my time. |
||||||
|
||||||
ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
|
|||||
|
John of AnimeNation's Ask John posted something of a response to this editorial.
In response to people saying they could actually eliminate piracy: Would it really make that much of a difference? Piracy doesn't directly cost the industry money but rather prevents them from recouping the initial costs and eventually turnin a profit by costing them sales. However, it has only cost them a sale if the person would otherwise have bought the product. Now I guess that puts us back to the same old unawnserable question of how much exactly people would buy if they couldn't download. However, while we can never definitively decide of the exact amount, I think it is reasonable to say that at least that the quantity people would buy at a price of roughly $25 a disc is significantly less than what people will "buy" at $0. Without a doubt piracy costs the industry sales but I also think it is largely indicative of an unwillingness to pay for anime in the way we are expected to under the current buisness model.
That is really just semantics. There is no right or wrong in economics. There is simply the way things work which therefore becomes equivelant to "right". The bottom line is whether the customer should act a certain way, they do act a different way. If the industry wants to survive they must accept that and adapt to turn a profit off of customers as they are.
Well, selling more for less is infact a potentially effective buisness model. Regardless, you're comparing apples and oranges. You make it out to be that he is claiming they should simply drop their prices to attract more customers.
But evidently you feel that you yourself do. Oh but I forgot, you're in buisness school. 
Oh and by the way "ANN" is not giving buisness advice. ANN is a website. It is simply posting an editorial piece in which the writer, Justin Sevakis is giving it. It "is solely the opinion of its writer and does not necessarily reflect the views of Anime News Network or its affiliates." |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Kyyrao
Posts: 4 |
|
|||||
If there is no attempt whatever on the part of the industry to develop a real presence online for their consumers it does not count as avoiding a failed business venture, only as avoiding a business opportunity. If you never build it, your customers will -never- come.
So due to the development of an entirely new technology that has largely rendered our old concepts of information distribution on a global scale meaningless we may have to reform the way our governments approach things? Seems that with an entire industry on the verge of collapse now would be the best possible time to make the case for some newer and more logical trade agreements to cover this area.
There are plenty of people throughout this topic history, myself included, who have stated very clearly we are either already spending money on anime or would love to spend more on anime, but the products we are trying to purchase are simply not available. American movie studios realized years ago that making the consumer wait for a Hollywood movie to come out on DVD had a simple formula of time versus sales where the longer the DVD release took the lower sales could be expected to be. When you are in the business of marketing and distributing something that is based largely on pop culture it is a fatal business flaw to move slowly in getting your product to the consumer while it is still hot, and anime suffers from one of the longest time delays of any modern pop culture product. |
||||||
|
||||||
Phantom14
 Posts: 86 Location: USA |
|
|||||
|
First of all, this is a very good letter, could have been more detailed but you got right to the point.
There is no doubt in my mind that Fan-subs are starting to have more of a negative effect in America than a positive one. Once the episode is out on the net it is always on the net. It negates the ethical fan-sub chivalry of dropping its project onces licenced. I do belive that action MUST BE TAKEN! A no tolerance policy MUST be taken agianst Bootleggers and PAY SITES. What they do is worse. Money that could be going to suport the anime industry is going into their pockets. Bootlegs are out right stealing making shotty work. What realy ticks me off, is these pay sites, claming only that thier money is only for the servers! Liars! Not only are they stealing the show, they are making a profit from it stealing money that would otherwise go to a overall honest industry here in the states. I like seeing anime and manga line Borders and Barnes and Noble. I like seeing that Best Buy has their own anime section....etc. I feel a sence of pride knowing that my hooby of watching and collecting anime and manga has expaned and becomed something bigger. I dont want to see it all fall becuse of the ignorance of some people and the outright thivery of others. Something must be done. Forgive all gramatical mishaps please. |
||||||
|
||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group