Forum - View topicTokyopop Initial D thoughts...
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ZanLong
Posts: 12 |
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Um, Star Wars is a remake of a Japanese film. And one of Lucas's original intentions was to have Toshiro Mifune play Obi Wan Kenobi. So this is an example of a Westernization of a Japanese film
Ok,I am going to get to your other point later on, but this one just screams out "Answer ME now!!!" Star Wars is not, or never was a remake of a japanese film. It was a mix of cultural myths, and history. The Jedi came from the Samuri. The only refrence to a japanese film was "The Fortress" and the only part that Lucas took from that was the two sidekicks, that became R2-D2 and C-3PO. Out of interest where did you hear that about Toshiro Mifune beening considered for Obi Wan? |
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GATSU
Posts: 15332 |
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"Star Wars is not, or never was a remake of a japanese film."
Then by that logic, Kurosawa's movies weren't remakes of American Westerns. "Out of interest where did you hear that about Toshiro Mifune beening considered for Obi Wan?" I thought that was common knowledge. :roll: |
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cookie
Former ANN Editor in Chief
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Uhm.... SW isn't a remake, per se, so much as simply being inspired by Eastern mythos. (Feel free to correct me and point out a movie that SW is actually based on.) Likewise, I can't see any of Kurosawa's works (his earlier ones, anyway -- I'm not familiar with his later productions) being 'remakes' of Westerns. Feel free to correct me there, too, btw. I do not claim to be a Kurosawa otaku. As for Mifune, though... http://www.calgaryplus.ca/feature/8447/trivia.html Interesting. I hadn't known that. |
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nagash
Posts: 280 |
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I'm sorry it has taken me so long to get into this but I haven't been able to log in for the past few days.
I picked up Love Hina Vol. 1 a month back or so. I also have the first 2 DVD's of Love Hina. You know what: they don't match. The overall plot is the same but the manga is not the anime. Why? Scenes don't match. So, who's at fault, the anime or the manga? I laugh because I'm not surprised. You're all complaining about the manga being edited but you should be expecting it. I have asked all anime companies I ever dealt with for 1 thing: to release 2 versions on the market: 1 edited and one pure. If you look hard enough, you will find unedited titles released commercially. The problem is that they go on the same timeline as the edited versions, so you have to wait for them. Why should manga be different? Parents would be in an uproar if their kids got a hold of books with sexual images in them. That goes without saying in this country. Fine, you take the pages out for the kids, but I would ask TokyoPop to release an unedited book, clearly marked, for those that want the sex scenes. If you look at the anime that makes it over here and keep in your mind that it's not the original format then you won't feel so stung when you see the changes. I'm all for unedited anime, but I also understand why it can't be shown as kids would be dyeing to see it, and frankly America is a bit too prude when it comes to sex, drugs, drinking, etc. Just keep writing to the companies. If they release two versions then you really can't complain. |
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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My mistake for not making my point clear enough. I wrote my previous post at 2AM, and in the interest of getting some sleep I was pretty much impromptu ranting. :-/ The point I was trying to make is that there is a ton of Asian and Asian-influenced material in the American entertainment industry that are already widely embraced. Films like Crouching Tiger and the Rush Hour series have been big hits at the box office, asian stars like Jackie Chan and Jet Lee are familiar to any avid moviegoer, people eat up virtually anything Ang Lee touches (or so it seems to me).... Asian culture seems to do equally well on television: Anime, domestic sentai, martial arts shows, Iron Chef, so on and so forth... Books I can't comment on, because I almost never read anymore. 
I think that pretty much establishes my point, though. Asian culture is here, and people do not heedlessly reject it. American society is far from obsessed with Asian culture, but I'm pretty sure that it has enough general understanding to cope with exposure to foreign names by now. Honestly, what kid is going to read a book about a guy named "Tak", but not read the same book if the guy was named "Takumi"? I just don't understand how something so insignificent as a name change can make a noticable change in sales or profits. What about art and plot? The way Tokyopop talks about it, you'd think that character names were the more important part of anime and manga. 
You missed my point entirely. I was saying that Tokyopop isn't giving their readers enough credit. I firmly believe that the vast majority of their readers are intelligent and unprejudiced enough to remember and accept characters with Japanese names. Again: How many people do you think would lose interest in the series if Tokyopop called the main character Takumi instead of "Tak"? If there are ANY, I can't help but believe that they would be far outweighed by the people who are likely to boycot the series because they know that it uis being edited.
What does that have to do with anything? None of that changes the fact that those franchises are popular despite the fact that the characters have names like "Padme Amidala", "Frodo Baggins", and "Yamcha".
If people can watch/read and enjoy TV and books with names like the ones in those series, I see no reason why they can't handle the original names in Initial D.
My mistake for not being clear once again. I'm especially irritated by the fact that they have decided to edit the manga, since manga so often seems to be treated as the hardcore fan's escape from censorship in the United States. Just for reference: I live in the United States. Unless I specifically mention some other part of the world, any statements about people or society that I make usually only apply to the US.
The same applies here. I'm talking about how fans in this country frequently turn to manga when they discover that a certain anime they like has been considerably edited. (Sailor Moon being the best example I can think of.)
I'll dismiss your last statement as the opinion of a discriminating opinion of a discriminating non-fan. It's totally illogical to claim that anything with hundreds of hours of story behind it amounts to nothing but merchandising bait. As for the first statement: You can only say they aren't if you outright lie. It is a statistical fact that Dragon Ball and Gundam are far more popular than probably at least 90% of other anime franchises. Whether you are open-minded enough to see value in them or not has nothing to do with it.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Since I started visiting Suncoast in 1997 or 1998, they have had a whole section devoted to anime. A department. A whole wall filled from floor to ceiling with anime. Since the DVD format came along, that has expanded to two walls. There must have been a stable market for it, because it would have made no sense for them to keep whole wall stocked full of videos that nobody bought. And considering the fact that it existed a full two years before you say anime started to become successful, I don't see how it could have been any sort of experimental venture.
Again, I would argue that, but it's now 1:30 and I'm tired of posting the same things over and over again. See my last reply for my basic thoughts on the matter. And if you have an urge to pick apart this post like you did my previous one, I encourage you not to waste your time. I have no interest in responding to any more condescending, argumentative nitpicking. If you wish to assert some sort of opinion of your own, that's spectacular. But if you just want to try and change what I've written, you might as well save your internet time and respond to someone else. I won't take the time to read another post like the last one.
Are you sure that's due to editing, though? I thought that Initial D was the only series Tokyopop planned on editing. The way I understand it, they are only editing the Initial D manga so they can sell it to the kids who watch the anime, which is going to be edited so it can be shown to a young audience on TV. It could be that the anime just follows a slightly different storyline than the anime. That happens a lot, since the animation executives like to add their own creative touches to the series, and since certain things have to get changed to make things look good in motion. (There is a lot of humor used in manga that doesn't make sense unless it's done with still pictures, for example.)
If you're talking about Initial D, you have to keep in mind that they published the first volume before they decided to edit it. It's a little unfair to say that we should have expected it, when the editing didn't start happening until two months after they started releasing it.
Last edited by Case on Thu Jul 18, 2002 2:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Hagakure
Posts: 111 Location: Connecticut |
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I will aforemention here that I am not picking on you Gatsu, but AHHHHHHH!!!! Kurosawa copying the western films?
Actually a little correction. The Seven Samurai is the original piece. The Maginificent Seven came later. At least thats the way I had heard it. I am a big Kurosawa fan. Both The Seven Samurai and The Maginificent Seven are the top two films shown in filmaking classes availible in college. Actually, there is a lot of comprable facts surrounding the Cowboy and the Samurai, honor, pride etc. I won't go in detail because then this would be a really OT post. As for Initial D, I have avoided posting in this topic just because there are so many different ways to percieve it, an I'm sure someone will want to kick me for saying it. But alas, the Kurosawa part was a major draw, and such things demand posting, so righty-o here we go!! (note, come up with better rhyme) IF you are going to go buy some bootleged/ invalidly fansubed version of Intial D you have mistaken some of the whole "fan betrayal" thing. I'm not saying this topic doesn't make me angry, but the fact of the matter is, some pro-active action can be taken against it. Rather than whining on a webboard, go write out a HANDWRITTEN or TYPED petition, and get REAL PEOPLE to sign it. You just might be surprised by the effect. Either way, its better than just idle whining. Don't think for a second that I don't support the indignation against this. And don't think I'm saying this to sound neutral on the topic. But let's be serious, the best thing you can do is whine? I'm not going to reitterate what's been said, but buying bootlegs (or any other pirate thing, I'M NOT GOING INTO THAT) is no way to fight what is going on (neither is saying, "well back when, things REALLY sucked, and now they marginally suck, so be happy") As for the cuts themselves, I believe they are pointless. I will state what's been said previously. What is the fear of Japanese names in this day and age? I suppose I have a partial answer to that, I know people who think I'm some sort of WWII soldier just because I practice kendo. TOKYOPOP is playing it really safe. They are trading racial/religious/"my son is being TAKEN by the Japanese TV show" (like that stupid South Park episode) fallout for fallout from their fans. Is it ethical? Nope. Safe, yup. One has a potential for lawsuits/racial anger, even though that is unlikely. They don't really fear fan fallout so much because I'm sure they can cope if ten people don't buy their manga out of anger. What to do? Get on it!! Send them a letter. Let them know that people aren't as racially ignorant as they think they need protection from. Let them know that as a fan, you can't accept this. Beacuse will ANYONE take idle whining seriously? Of course not. |
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bakachild
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i bought the first volume of it even tho i read the mangaproject version, mainly to pretty up my manga shelf. I am an editor/scanner/admin of mangascreener.com and so its not like i don't know what a good edit job looks like on a japanese manga. i will say this, their job on initial d volume 1 was damn good. Some companies like dark horse try and cram to much on a page so you have to almost break the binding to see some of the text. i noticed no problems with it. So their edits were good but now that they are changing the original stuff around it will hurt their PA a lot.
Oh by the way didn't the original volumes of dragonball manga come in edited form and later they started releasing the unedited? and does anyone find it weird that that one TP guy just dropped and went back to the gaming industry? |
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GATSU
Posts: 15332 |
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nagash: "You know what: they don't match. "
That's cus Bandai toned down the manga when they made the anime. "Parents would be in an uproar if their kids got a hold of books with sexual images in them. That goes without saying in this country." Why is no one listening to what I'm saying? JAPAN EDITS SEX SCENES TOO! "America is a bit too prude when it comes to sex, drugs, drinking, etc." Read the above. Also, certain anime are also only shown at certain times in Japan. (Berserk and Devil Man Lady, for example, were shown late at night.) Not to mention half of Bebop was never even aired on Japanese tv. sailormech: "Films like Crouching Tiger and the Rush Hour series have been big hits at the box office," Actually, they bombed in Hong Kong, because they weren't considered Asian, but Hollywood interpretations of Asian films. Funny huh? "people eat up virtually anything Ang Lee touches (or so it seems to me)...." Um, Ang Lee was living under the radar until CTHD, even though he'd been directing Western movies.(Sense and Sensibility, The Ice Storm, etc.) And if he screws up the Hulk, his career could be over. "Asian culture seems to do equally well on television: Anime, domestic sentai, martial arts shows, Iron Chef," Sentai hasn't done well in a long time. Martial arts shows are limited to Korean channels. Iron Chef is the only thing with which I can agree. "The way Tokyopop talks about it, you'd think that character names were the more important part of anime and manga." I'm sure the Japanese have their own popular names they like to use when they sell an anime/manga. "I live in the United States. Unless I specifically mention some other part of the world, any statements about people or society that I make usually only apply to the US." My point is that if it's already edited in Japan, how can you really determine what the final unedited version really is over here? "It's totally illogical to claim that anything with hundreds of hours of story behind it amounts to nothing but merchandising bait" Then I guess you haven't heard of Pokemon. "It is a statistical fact that Dragon Ball and Gundam are far more popular than probably at least 90% of other anime franchises." And your information comes from where? And just because it's popular does not necessarily mean it's deep. "And considering the fact that it existed a full two years before you say anime started to become successful, I don't see how it could have been any sort of experimental venture." Suncoast is just one chain of stores that decided to stock up on anime. Only recently could you see this as regular chains such as Wal Mart or Best Buy. Hagakure: "I will aforemention here that I am not picking on you Gatsu, but AHHHHHHH!!!! Kurosawa copying the western films?" He was inspired by John Ford. |
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Ataru
 Posts: 2306 Location: Missouri (Strikeman) |
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That's kind of common that they don't match up. Ghost in the Shell, Sailor Moon, Cowboy Bebop, Ranma ½, Urusei Yatsura and later volumes of Evangelion manga form is are different from their anime counterpart. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. Now, back to the topic already in progress. |
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danbeck
Posts: 13 |
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It's very rare for *any* manga and anime to sync up together. It has nothing to do with American companies, nor American edits. Usually manga come first, then the Anime. Many times the anime can be expected to only run for 26+/- episodes in a season and the director has to fit the important parts of the story into that time block. What on earth does this have to do with Tokyopop changing the names in Initial D to be "cooler"? |
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Cgoten
Posts: 390 Location: Glenview, Illinois |
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Yeah. They made the text bubbles bigger to cover up anything they wanted to edit. My friend had the edit and I had the uncut so I compared them. Not that much was edited but it was still a bad idea. Thank god they stopped. Oops. Back on topic, I think TokyoPop will eventually catch on and release an unedited version, at least I hope they do. And even if they don't, they've released a lot of great manga here unflipped and unedited. Everyone makes mistakes (some bigger mistakes than others) TokyoPop makes a mistake once in a while too. |
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ashram12
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Well, after reading through most of the messages on this subject, I have my own thoughts to share. BTW, I've never seen or read Initial D. I reread Tokyopop's letter on Initial D and as far as I read they only mentioned giving the characters nichnames and editing some sex scenes. I honestly don't see what the fuss is. Just like when 'Outlaw Star" came out and people complained about Melfina's digital bathing suit. Or having Usagi's name from Sailor Moon changed to Serena in the anime and Bunny in the manga. These changes don't really take away from the plot or anything.
I agree that changing the characters' names is a stupid thing to do considering animes in the mainstream like Pokemon or DragonBall Z where all the characters have weird names, and the kiddies seem to catch on the names pretty quickly. But I also think most american people remember and pronounce American names better than Japanese names. I've seen some Japanese voice actors or directors and the like having their names either misspelled or in the wrong order either in the shows' english end credits, or in some reviews online. The people doing the credits or writing the reviews should be more careful, but also I don't blame them for not grasping japanese names as quickly ad they would English ones. |
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ZanLong
Posts: 12 |
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My point is that if it's already edited in Japan, how can you really determine what the final unedited version really is over here?
The FINAL UNEDITED VERSION is what was put out in the book store in japan. The one that is considered the 1st edition. This means that it had went thorght the editor at the publishing house and was demed ready to be solded, any changes after this are NOT NEEDED. But that is what Tokopop did, they changed it. It was already the FINAL UNEDITED VERSION when Tokopop got the rights to it!!! "It's totally illogical to claim that anything with hundreds of hours of story behind it amounts to nothing but merchandising bait" Then I guess you haven't heard of Pokemon. "It is a statistical fact that Dragon Ball and Gundam are far more popular than probably at least 90% of other anime franchises." And your information comes from where? And just because it's popular does not necessarily mean it's deep. Pokemon was set up to be merchandising bait from the start, can not say ether way on DZ, but Gundam was not. Gundam came from Yoshiyuki Tomino's long time frustration with what was the norm for big robot show at the time. He wanted to show that the genre had greater potential. In 1979, he made a show that had a realistic story line, with real characters, ones that could not be pigeonhole as just good or evil. For the mecha, or "Mobile Suit" he was partly influenced by Robert Heinlein's 1959 sci-fi novel, Starship Troopers. The mecha where just piloted exoskeleton. The story Tomino created is a epic science fiction story of the earth at war with the space colonies, that lasted until V Gundam which came out in 1993. Any thing after that, G Gundam, and Gundam Wing are parallel future story lines. They have nothing to do with the main Gundam story arc. "And considering the fact that it existed a full two years before you say anime started to become successful, I don't see how it could have been any sort of experimental venture." Suncoast is just one chain of stores that decided to stock up on anime. Only recently could you see this as regular chains such as Wal Mart or Best Buy. Once agen you are wrong. As far back as 1995, I was able to get a lot of my anime video tapes, not DVD, at the Best Buy near me. By the mid 90, sales of anime video tapes where high enough to give places like Best Buy a reason to stock anime on a contist bases. DVD was just riding the wave that video tape had started 3 to 4 years befor. As for TV, this one I will give you. When Cartoon Network started it Toonmi time slot it was the start of anime on TV. Cartoon Network also proved that you could show the anime with out changing it. Viz and Dark Horse/Studio Proteus have been coming out with translated manga since 1987 and not need to change any thing.excepted in the cases that I mentioned befor, but they got the rights to do that by the creator of the works. Tokoypop just as much money is they just left Initial D alone, and if you come back with "You do not know that" Then you raely have not been paying attention at all to the anime/manga fan bace. It is the fan base who wants final unedited version, with out any changes. And it is this fan base that has keeped Viz and Dark Horse/Studio Proteus, ADV, CPM, AnimeEgo, Pioneer, and Bandai in bisniuss. Tokopop needs to understand this if it wants to keep going. Hagakure: "I will aforemention here that I am not picking on you Gatsu, but AHHHHHHH!!!! Kurosawa copying the western films?" Actually a little correction. The Seven Samurai is the original piece. The Maginificent Seven came later. He was inspired by John Ford. Where did you get this pice of info from? |
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GATSU
Posts: 15332 |
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Zan:
"The FINAL UNEDITED VERSION is what was put out in the book store in japan." Not necessarily. When Violence Jack first came out, certain scenes were edited from the manga, and re-released separately 20 years later. And there's more than one version of Video Girl Ai and GITS2. "It's totally illogical to claim that anything with hundreds of hours of story behind it amounts to nothing but merchandising bait" Then I guess you haven't heard of Pokemon. "It is a statistical fact that Dragon Ball and Gundam are far more popular than probably at least 90% of other anime franchises." And your information comes from where? And just because it's popular does not necessarily mean it's deep. "Gundam came from Yoshiyuki Tomino's long time frustration with what was the norm for big robot show at the time. He wanted to show that the genre had greater potential. In 1979, he made a show that had a realistic story line, with real characters, ones that could not be pigeonhole as just good or evil." And now Gundam's just become a shadow of its former self. "Once agen you are wrong. As far back as 1995, I was able to get a lot of my anime video tapes, not DVD, at the Best Buy near me." If it was '95, there couldn't have been many tapes to begin with. "When Cartoon Network started it Toonmi time slot it was the start of anime on TV." Um, anime's been on tv for about 30 years. "Cartoon Network also proved that you could show the anime with out changing it." A lot of anime gets edited on CN. "Viz and Dark Horse/Studio Proteus have been coming out with translated manga since 1987 and not need to change any thing.excepted in the cases that I mentioned befor, but they got the rights to do that by the creator of the works." I really can't argue with you anymore until you learn to spell. |
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nagash
Posts: 280 |
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I know Japan edits sex scenes. They have their own rules on it. I also know that as an adult I want the original unedited version.
I am sick of companies changing the story just so a kid could watch it. Some anime and manga was not designed for younger kids. |
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