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Zan:

"The FINAL UNEDITED VERSION is what was put out in the book store in japan."

Not necessarily. When Violence Jack first came out, certain scenes were edited from the manga, and re-released separately 20 years later. And there's more than one version of Video Girl Ai and GITS2.

How dose FINAL VERSION sound. It still does not change the fact that Tokoypop did not have to change a thing to Initial D to market here.

"It's totally illogical to claim that anything with hundreds of hours of story behind it amounts to nothing but merchandising bait"

Then I guess you haven't heard of Pokemon.

"It is a statistical fact that Dragon Ball and Gundam are far more popular than probably at least 90% of other anime franchises."

And your information comes from where? And just because it's popular does not necessarily mean it's deep.

"Gundam came from Yoshiyuki Tomino's long time frustration with what was the norm for big robot show at the time. He wanted to show that the genre had greater potential. In 1979, he made a show that had a realistic story line, with real characters, ones that could not be pigeonhole as just good or evil."

And now Gundam's just become a shadow of its former self.

If you are talking about the U.C. timeline that is your opinion. I think MS 8th team was a great story. I really liked 0080 and 0083.

"Once agen you are wrong. As far back as 1995, I was able to get a lot of my anime video tapes, not DVD, at the Best Buy near me."

If it was '95, there couldn't have been many tapes to begin with.

Oh, I do not know... It was about the same amount of tapes that you can now find at Suncoat and Best Buy as DVD, and most of the DVDs out are reissues of anime that frist came over on tape.

"When Cartoon Network started it Toonmi time slot it was the start of anime on TV."

Um, anime's been on tv for about 30 years.

But there was never a time slot just of anime.

"Cartoon Network also proved that you could show the anime with out changing it."

A lot of anime gets edited on CN.

For content, and in the case of the Tenchi 13 ep. OVA, for time, not for story, and names. Cowboy Bebop, Outlaw Star, Tenchi, Big O, Gundam (Wing, 0080, 0083, MS 8th team, MS Gundam) have the same story, and names that are on the DVDs. Cartoon Network did not change anything in the shows, and they still did well. Why did Tokoypop have to change the names, even to shortening them is changing them from the final version.

"Viz and Dark Horse/Studio Proteus have been coming out with translated manga since 1987 and not need to change any thing.excepted in the cases that I mentioned befor, but they got the rights to do that by the creator of the works."

I really can't argue with you anymore until you learn to spell.

Hmmmm..... I do not think I will argue with you anymore until you stop spin doctoring my words, so you can feel that you have scored points which BTW, you have not.
In the end, Tokoypop still does not understand what the fans want. We want manga/anime that was put on sale in Japan with the story that the Japanese read, or viewed with the names and cultural references that where there when they read, or viewed it. And if you can not seem to understand that point, then you never will, and there is no point in continuing with this debate.

THE DOULBE POSTS, THEY BLIND ME SO

Hmmm.... I only post it once.... strange... yestrday I could not log on at all...

After five bloody pages of debate, I am absolutely stunned that not one person brought this up:

Tokyopop Staff wrote:

...future plans for the property include all the things fans have asked for over the years -- and only occasionally received for such a mainstream property: premium, uncut, subtitled DVD releases, limited collector’s sets of the uncut manga themselves...

Don't belive me? Check it out yourself, skeptic. animenewsnetwork.com/article.php?id=2304

Now, having said that, what the hell is the big deal? They are going to release the uncut version! What are you complaining about? Did you not read the letter? It's right there, in black and white. Where is the debate, the controversy? Yes, if they release the edited version under their "100% Authentic Manga" label, that will be wrong. However, it's such a blatant lie that I won't believe thy're foolish enough to stick that label on it until I see it on the shelf. However, even if they do, this "disaster" isn't worth 15% of the attention it's getting. If they were to edit the anime and manga without giving an alternative, that would be inexcusable. But they're not, so where's the debate coming from?

OK, OK, I grant you they said future plans. Nothing definite there. Guess what? I still consider it a foregone conclusion. Why? Because there's a market for it. Tokyopop's initial DVD release was Spring and Chaos, aka Kenji's Spring. It was an example of a totally botched DVD; the video was terrible and it was dubtitled. When they released what happened, they issued replacement copies and stopped shipping the bad ones to stores. What is the point to all this? Spring and Chaos was not a popular title, even the fixed version. It was an animated biography of a Kenji Miyazawa, a poet few in the US had even heard of before. It was as far from mainstream as you can possibly get without swimming out to sea. Not a big seller. They fixed it anyway. When they botched Vampire Princess Miyu, they fixed the future volumes. Likewise for St. Tail. The vast majority of anime buyers probably didn't care about the changes made to Miyu and St. Tail, and the didn't care about Spring and Chaos at all. It still got fixed.

To those of you who endured my rambling, long-winded anecdote and cry out "Where is the point?", I say this: Tokyopop is a company that listens to customer feedback. Doesn't even have to be a mjority of their customers. "If so, than why are they editing it? Waaah!" Shut up. I'm getting to that. It's about money; this is stated in the open letter. Initial D was not cheap to liscense. The music rights alone probably cost a small fortune (this why we're never going to see Macross 7 over here). They need to recoup their investment. In order to do so, they're marketing it to as wide an audience as possible via getting it on TV. In order to market it, they had to Westernize it. Complain all you want about the TV executives, but Tokyopop is only doing what they had to, to get it on the air. In fact, they're obviously fighting to keep it from being changed more than it already is. Of course, it would still be a horrible tragedy if a more faithful version wasn't available. But will be available because A) people have made it clear there's a market for it, and B) Tokyopop listens to customer feedback.

Let's be clear. Initial D, or any anime for that matter, is not sacrosanct. It is not sacrilege if a slightly modified version exists. It does not corrupt the original product. Of course, I'm indifferent to Initial D. What if were a show I am completely enamored of? Say, Princess Nine, to give a recent example. Guess what? I don't care if they change Ryo and Izumi's names to T-Bob and Barbie, set in Seattle instead of Japan and edit out Hikaru completely. As long as the unedited, properly translated, version is available they can guest star on Teletubbies for all I care.

AkiraKaneda wrote:

Just the fact that you would even consider putting the concept of racism and anime in the same light would concern me. <snip> But to not support a great series (I'm assuming, having not seen it yet) because of name changes is like not driving a car in protest of a 5 cent gas hike.

Just look at those 2 statements next to one another for a moment. First you say you can't compare anime to racism. Then you say that it CAN be compared to boycotting cars. Hmm. I actually find the leap from racism to anime easier, personally, since it does inspire the same passion in people that racism can. The controversies aren't nearly so violent as racism and its consequences, nor are those who are wrong quite so idiotic, but the rage a disagreement can bring up is... yeah, I can make that leap.
In the second statement, tho, boycotting car companies because of a gas hike is way off base. Boycotting one car company because you didn't like the design of their car would be a closer analogy. If they stopped watching all anime because some of it was altered, I could see your point.

However, my take on the whole matter is that, if you want to see it totally unchanged, get the manga straight from Japan. There are several bookstores that deal in books from other countries (Sasuga, for one - and they are online). Yes, it is condescending of American distro companies to cut or explain things they don't think we can handle or figure out. But they do it. Bottom line.

Ginsu Camel wrote:

Let's be clear. Initial D, or any anime for that matter, is not sacrosanct. It is not sacrilege if a slightly modified version exists. It does not corrupt the original product. Of course, I'm indifferent to Initial D. What if were a show I am completely enamored of? Say, Princess Nine, to give a recent example. Guess what? I don't care if they change Ryo and Izumi's names to T-Bob and Barbie, set in Seattle instead of Japan and edit out Hikaru completely. As long as the unedited, properly translated, version is available they can guest star on Teletubbies for all I care.

Sir, that is THE BEST post I have ever read. Would you give me a hug?

Thank goddess for Japanese tracks on DVDs. HAZAH!

This thread has actually piqued my interest in the Initial D manga. I'll have to borrow it from my friend and see if it's really worth the amount of attention it is getting. Out of curiosity, does anyone know how the manga compares to the anime?

Ginsu Camel wrote:

what the hell is the big deal? They are going to release the uncut version! What are you complaining about? Did you not read the letter? It's right there, in black and white. Where is the debate, the controversy? Yes, if they release the edited version under their "100% Authentic Manga" label, that will be wrong. However, it's such a blatant lie that I won't believe thy're foolish enough to stick that label on it until I see it on the shelf. However, even if they do, this "disaster" isn't worth 15% of the attention it's getting. If they were to edit the anime and manga without giving an alternative, that would be inexcusable. But they're not, so where's the debate coming from?

The deal is they did not need to change anything to the manga to sell it. Plus they are going to waste more money trying to fix something that if they left it alone there would not be a problem in the first place.

Ginsu Camel wrote:
Tokyopop is a company that listens to customer feedback. Doesn't even have to be a mjority of their customers.

LOL!!!! Only after they get there butts slammed for messing up. Mixxzine is a case in point. It was Tokoypop's first try in this market. When it first came out it was what Super Manga Blast and Animerica Extra are, a manga anthology. The first year was great. Four manga stories, that was all. Every one loved it. 2nd year, things started to change. Less manga and more pop culture magazine feel. Stuart Levy on about how he was giving the fans what they wanted. Customers complained about this. Nothing happened, in fact it got worse. To the point that to have more pop culture articles, they started to fit two pages of magna on one page. Made it really hard to read. Customers complained, nothing happened. Customers dropped Mixxzine. Tokoypop had to drop Mixxzine for lack of sales. To make back there money, they took the four mangas and put them out at Graphic Novel. Customers payed the $12.95 for them. Tokoypop made lots of money. I had thought had learned, and with this wave of books I thought they did. Until Initial D. Yes, Tokoypop is a company that listens to customer feedback, only after the customers hit them up side the head for messing up.

Ginsu Camel wrote:
I say this: Tokyopop is a company that listens to customer feedback. Doesn't even have to be a mjority of their customers. "If so, than why are they editing it? Waaah!" Shut up. I'm getting to that. It's about money.

If it was about money, they would have left Initial D alone. It would have soled big time as is. As for the anime, if they fought to keep the cultural reference in, and won. Why could they not leave the names alone? What are we still scared of names like Ohtori, Akamatsu, Asamiya, and the like that we need to change them to "feel"safe?

ZanLong wrote:

The deal is they did not need to change anything to the manga to sell it. Plus they are going to waste more money trying to fix something that if they left it alone there would not be a problem in the first place.

Do you and I have a problem with the manga as it was originally published? No. Well, I do; I think the character designs are hideous, but that's beside the point. Whether I care for a particular anime or not, they all deserve a world-class translation. Tokyopop is clearly not living up to those standards in the case of Initial D. Of course, as I already mentioned, the unedited version is going to be available to the likes of you and I, but let's not beat a dead horse. You say they could just leave it alone; I say, there's a compelling reason for doing it. Yeah, it's money again. Let me explain. They wouldn't bother going back to change the names if they didn't already have a fairly solid deal in the making. It may sound ludicrous, but it would not suprise me that any deal signed with a major network include provisions requiring them to Westernize it, including the manga. Marketing a franchise requires consistency. The manga serves as an advertisement for the anime and vice versa. However, if the names are different in each medium, consumers will not see it as part of the same franchise. It sounds dumb, but this is the way marketing works. So yeah, the contract they signed may well have required it. Even if it didn't it's probably to their benefit for the reasons I already mentioned. In economics, it's not whether or not you can sell it, but how much of it you can sell.

America may or may not be ready for Japanese names. I think it is, but that's irrelevant. You see, I do agree that these names are stupid. However, the network executives may not see it that way. Whether the public would actually accept a protagonist with a Japanese name has nothing to do with their decision. If they believe American names will make it more popular, than that's what they'll tell Tokyopop. And if Tokyopop wants to get the show broadcast, then they'll smile and say "Yes, Sir!" Besides for all we know, the focus groups might well be complaining about the names. People can be ignorant and close-minded about the stupidest things. That's life.

ZanLong wrote:

Yes, Tokoypop is a company that listens to customer feedback, only after the customers hit them up side the head for messing up.

Correct. What's your point? Things never get fixed unless someone complains! Why? Because they'd have no reason to assume people were dissatisfied with the original product! You think they decide to fix things based on signals from outer space? ("Hey, Neptune called! They want the overlays out of St. Tail!") No! They change things based on customer feedback. And before you get so smug on behalf of consumers everywhere consider that listening to customer feedback is by no means universal! Pioneer has not yet released an uncut, subtitled version of Dog of Flanders on DVD. Manga still hasn't fixed Royal Space Force; in fact they refuse to admit there's even a problem with it! Tokyopop has listened to fan feedback in almost every instance, including the Spring and Chaos debacle, which they could have easily blown off without consequence since almost nobody has even heard of it. Oh, and leave Mixxzine out of this. It was a disaster, but it has exactly NOTHING to do with the current issue.

Lord Byronius: Lain erased Hikaru from everyone's memory which means she never existed to begin with. T-Bob and Barbie send their love, however.

Things never get fixed unless someone complains! Why? Because they'd have no reason to assume people were dissatisfied with the original product! You think they decide to fix things based on signals from outer space?

There is a other way to make sure you do not mess up in the manga market. Look at what has worked and what had bombed by looking at the other two big manga publishers, Viz and Dark Horse/Studio Proteus. These two have had a great track record when it comes to manga going back to the mid 80's.

With Initial D, Tokoypop is going to lose sales, and then waste a lot money putting out a unchanged Initial D later down the road. When they could have put out Initial D, with out changing the names, and made just as much more money. Money that could have been used to bring over more manga.

I've followed this thread for awhile and it seems its just becoming a mess now.
Before this thread drifts into obscurity, I just wanted to add some additional thoughts I've been having. As one of those who agreed with Danbeck on this, I want to clear up that I am not hysterically upset (like some people seem to be saying about those of us who are against Tokyopop's edits). I do not think this is the end of all life as we know it. I dont think that Tokyopop is the devil. I just feel that this was the wrong thing for them to do. Their ultimate goal is to get my money and they will not be. Simple as that.
In addition to what others have said, one of the main reasons for my displeasure at their edits and something I haven't seen anyone else touch on really is that edits on our side disrupt the Japanese feel of the manga. Thats one of the reasons I like manga. Its not like American comics. It represents a different culture. A different culture that interests me. I want to experience that culture. Not my culture's take on their culture. (Hope that wasnt confusing) If we mess with it too much over here it's not really "manga" anymore. Or at least it seems that way to me.

I haven't seen anyone else touch on really is that edits on our side disrupt the Japanese feel of the manga. Thats one of the reasons I like manga. Its not like American comics. It represents a different culture. A different culture that interests me. I want to experience that culture. Not my culture's take on their culture. (Hope that wasnt confusing) If we mess with it too much over here it's not really "manga" anymore. Or at least it seems that way to me.

That is the same reason I like magna as well, and is one of the points I was trying to make to GATSU. I want the cultural referents kept in. That is one of the reasons I can not understand Tokoypop's stand on this. If they know what the fans want, and They said they fought to keep the cultural referents in, why change the names? Initial D takes place in Japan. Why not keep the Japanese names?

Armblessed wrote:

I haven't seen anyone else touch on really is that edits on our side disrupt the Japanese feel of the manga. Thats one of the reasons I like manga. Its not like American comics. It represents a different culture. A different culture that interests me. I want to experience that culture. Not my culture's take on their culture. (Hope that wasnt confusing) If we mess with it too much over here it's not really "manga" anymore. Or at least it seems that way to me.

This is a viewpoint I agree with. I hate seeing an anime or manga being warped into something it is not. I don't like what Tokyopop is doing to Initial D, but with an unedited version being released along side it, we don't have anything to complain about. I know it's painful to see it happen, but I've already explained my position on that. They have the right to do it; it's not some inviolable work of art, and a pure version will be available.

Armblessed wrote:

Their ultimate goal is to get my money and they will not be. Simple as that.

Nor will they be getting mine, at least for the edited version. But I may well buy the unedited version and so should you, if feel so strongly about keeping manga "pure." If you have some faint notion of refusing to buy any version of Initial D from Tokyopop because of their perceived "insults," then stop complaining right now. All of you who are moaning about this decision, I sincerely hope you're planning on buying the unedited version, because it will make a far stronger statement than whining about it in this forum. Remember, they're not after your money specifically. They want to get as much as possible, from anyone who will give it to them. The market will decide which version emerges triumphant. Do not presume to second-guess it. Despite using (mostly) the American versions of the names, Tokyopop's sales of Sailor Moon continue to do well. However, if you care about which side wins, then cast your vote with your wallet.

ZanLong wrote:

There is a other way to make sure you do not mess up in the manga market. Look at what has worked and what had bombed by looking at the other two big manga publishers, Viz and Dark Horse/Studio Proteus.

Dark Horse is not a manga exclusive company. Viz is the American arm of Japanese manga publisher Shogakukan. This gives stablility and resources Tokyopop does not have. Furthermore, they are content to rest on their laurels, so to speak, rather than agressively seeking a wider audience as Tokyopop has done. Tokyopop is trying to blaze a trail through public awareness as no other manga company has done before and I admire them for it.

ZanLong wrote:

If they know what the fans want, and They said they fought to keep the cultural referents in, why change the names? Initial D takes place in Japan. Why not keep the Japanese names?

Please actually read what I write; I do you the same courtesy. To repeat: if Tokyopop has made a tenative deal with a major broadcaster, it may require them to change the names in the manga to match the executives' preferences for American names in the TV series. This is only a hypothesis, but it is the only logical explanation I can come up with, and no one has suggested anything better.

Ginsu Camel wrote:

Tokyopop is trying to blaze a trail through public awareness as no other manga company has done before and I admire them for it.

I disagree, IMO TokyoPop is trying to retread the ground paved by Harmony Gold and companies that came long before them. I also would not care if the changed the names to T-Bob & Barbie (heck they could do that IN Initial D from my PoV). I went back and re-read the letter thanks to your reference to it. Again, I would state that if they release an uncut version, that's great, my complaint with TP is that they are NOT "trailblazing". IMO "Initial D" (what little I've seen) IS targetted to an audience of at least teens, according to TokyoPop's letter THEY are targetting it to a younger group than it was MADE FOR. (so are THEY targetting preteens and toddlers?) Shocked

In My Opinion, when TokyoPop buys the rights to some more adult titles AND intends to sell them to more ADULTS, THEN they will be "trailblazing" and taking an impressive step forward. Until then, it's all just more of the same.
And by the by, if they're changing (for example) some names because it's in a contract they're negotiating, that doesn't bug me, but if we find that contract puts "Initial D" on "Fox Kids" or "Kids WB"... well, that's network television, but need I say more?

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