Forum - View topicNisemonogatari (with index).
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23860 |
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Yeah, I would say all those points are valid. I can still get into the visual style and any interaction between Araragi and Hitagi is always fun, but a lot of my current enjoyment of Nise is goodwill left over from Bake, because I like the "world" of it so much. If Bake and Nise ever get R1 releases, I'd buy Nise too, but more out a sense of collector completism than out of a strong desire to own it for its own sake.
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Kirkdawg
 Subscriber Posts: 742 Location: California, USA |
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I just finished rewatching Bakemono (yes, that fast). Wow, Nisemono and Bakemono are light years apart in quality. For some shows, my enjoyment falls off if I know what's going to happen (ie mystery dramas). This was not really the case here.
The fan service really does seem excessive to me in relation to Bakemono. Why was there such a drastic change? It seems like the subtle nuances from the older series didn't really come over into the new one. For example, I totally forgot Kanbaru is a lesbian and has (had?) a thing for Hitagi. Hitagi also regards her as her precious underclassmen. I don't remember seeing any evidence of that in Nise. Stuff like that bothers me |
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Spotlesseden
Posts: 3514 Location: earth |
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i don't know why people always have to compare. In anime, sequel is always not the same. The anime didn't change anything from the book. This is just like FMA all over again.
I think the sequel is better because I always like longer arc. And it gives you more detail. On the first anime, you have to guess alot of stuffs. If they are going to make Nekomonogatari, it will be different too. From what i heard, the final 3 books will be just one big arc with 3 stories that will link all the previous events together. |
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Kirkdawg
Subscriber Posts: 742 Location: California, USA |
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How can you not compare a sequel? They are directly related and it's supposed to be a continuation of the preceding series. If I can't tell the two are linked through significant details (and there's some where I can't), then that's a problem in my book. The lead staff is very similar, so why the large different in (what I perceive to be) quality?
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killmyself
 Posts: 168 |
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Kizu = catalyst, Bake = construction of the harem, and Nise = wacky harem adventures for the most part. They are linked and it is obvious and makes sense. Did you think he was just going to keep adding girls every 3 episodes?
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Spotlesseden
Posts: 3514 Location: earth |
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this.
Like i said, the books are different. They can't just change the story. Do you mean there is no transition between both anime? What quality are you talking about? The anime picture quality is the same the writing style is about the same. Just the story is different. The books that are before Hitagi, has more action, less talking. Bakemonogatari has much less action. Just because they are all linked, it doesn't mean he has to write all the books exactly the same. Do You really want him to repeat samething again and again. I will give you some examples, like Bleach, Dragon Ball, the first 10 chs of the manga are very different than later on in the manga. The first half of Dragon Ball manga is completely different than second half of Dragon Ball(some call that DBZ in US) So can I ask you why Dragon Ball is different than DBZ? |
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GeminiDS85
Posts: 391 |
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“Everything looks the same to one who isn’t familiar with it. Knowledge and education are required to properly judge such a thing”
1. What does Nisemonogatari mean in Japanese? For easy access, I posted the definition of nisemono on the first page of this thread. 偽物にご注意。 Nisemono ni gochuui. Beware of imitations. それは偽物です。 Sore wa nisemono desu. That’s a copy. 2. What is the name of the genre that would best describe Nisemonogatari? Harem 3. How do the answers to questions 1 and 2 relate to the perception of anime? (Think criticism) The most common criticism used to devalue anime – or otaku culture— is that it has become a medium that constantly reuses stock characters, familiar plot devices, standard tropes, etc. to tell its stories. Harem anime, for example, is probably the best illustration of this type of criticism in that it is heavily predicated on reusing standard tropes, characters, and plot devices to generate revenue for companies. 4. How do the answers to questions 1, 2, and 3 relate to Nisemonogatari? Nisemonogatari is, first and foremost, a lascivious, harem anime that is being used to generate a tidy sum for NisiOisin and Shaft Animation. It uses an amalgamation of stock character types, standard tropes, and erotic imagery that routinely generates revenue for companies that operate in the ambit of otaku culture. It is an imitation of an imitation of an imitation. 5. After developing a context from the answers of questions 1-4, think about a lot of the self-reflexive, metaphorical conversations between characters in the narrative that directly relate to this newly developed contextual insight. (In particular think about the content of the conversations between Koyomi and Kanbaru in episode two and between Karen and Kaiki in episode five) NisiOisin seems completely aware of how his monogatari series is a copy that imitates hundreds of other works produced in otaku culture. Nisemonogatari is a self-reflexive, extend metaphor (allegory) that comments on itself and satirizes through subtextual resonance. NisiOisin has taken one of the most vulgar paradigms of modern media and spliced it with the ostentatious, avant-garde styling of high-culture products. Think about harem anime and Nisemonogatari when reading these lines. The Glasses-Wearing Secretary and the Glasses-Wearing Prince Koyomi: We can throw this one out… I guess it goes in the flammable trash. Suruga: Araragi, that may be flammable, but definitely not trash. It may be rotten, but I need it. Koyomi: But all of these look the same… Can you tell the difference when you read them? Suruga: Of course. Everything looks the same to one who isn’t familiar with it. Knowledge and education are required to properly judge such a thing. Koyomi: I see. But even still… (Picks up three books and they all say:The Glasses-Wearing Secretary and the Glasses-Wearing Prince) I guess they’re all handsome. I was just thinking you like ’em handsome… Maybe you aren’t really a big pervert. Don’t all girls like handsome guys? 6. What is the Fire Sisters' mission? They are justice. 7. How does the Fire Sisters' mission relate to the deductions you came to after answering questions 1-5? Karen: What you’re doing is a giant pain in the butt. You don’t need me to explain, do you? Kaiki: A pain? I’m giving you kids what you want. How you use it is your responsibility. Karen: Our responsibility? How is it our responsibility? How dare you?! You’re ruining people’s relationships… What are you thinking? Kaiki: What am I thinking? Quite a deep question. Unfortunately, I’ll have to respond with a shallow answer. I’m doing it for the money, naturally. Karen: Money? Kaiki: Money makes the world go ‘round. I suppose you’ve come here out of some primitive sense of justice. But that was a mistake. You could have earned 100,000 yen for this. The lesson for you here is that it’s never worth working for free. Karen: No one hired me! I’m not here because someone asked me to be! Kaiki: I see… Then you should have had some ask you Karen: Even if someone had, I wouldn’t have taken their money! Kaiki: Araragi, you’ve heard what I wanted. Now it’s your turn. What do you want? Karen: I told you already. I came here to punch you! Kaiki: Just to punch me? Karen: I’ll kick you, too!... And I’ll make you stop this. Selling this crap to middle schoolers? What are you thinking? And you call yourself an adult?! Our villain, who is a fake, is generating a hefty stream of revenue by exploiting a small group of people with high-priced imitations. Hmm…I wonder if we can draw any parallels to what Shaft and NisiOisin are doing? Nisemonogatari seems like it is simply invoking NisiOisin’s avant-garde essence while he plays around with how many ways he can relate the show to the portmanteau—Nisemonogatari. Nisemono is a word in Japanese that is loaded with a lot different meanings – fake; copy; imitation; spurious article; forgery; counterfeit; sham. So what we have here in Nisemonogatari is NisiOisin playing around the multiple meanings of the title of his story. Karen, a copy and imitation on both the surface and subtextual level, is fighting against a villain who profits off copies in a show/story which is chockfull of copies and imitations, and is written by a man who is profiting off a small group of people buying his copies and imitations. I love it! There is a bunch of other ways to apply the title to this show, but I’ll leave that for another post. Now, let’s return to this quote: “Everything looks the same to one who isn’t familiar with it. Knowledge and education are required to properly judge such a thing.” Any thoughts? |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23860 |
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Very persuasive, GeminiDS85. Well done! We know that NisiOisin enjoys using the conventions of a particular genre to subvert them for humorous purposes and for thematic reasons. Katanagatari was basically a self-aware and sly piss-taking of the samurai adventure story genre. So yeah, I buy into this interpretation big time.
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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But, as I wrote when you first posted that list of questions, it's not an allegory. An allegory requires some sort of moral or spiritual meaning/significance. What would you say the moral of Nise is? If the Fire Sisters truly represent 'justice', what is NiseOisin saying by allowing these sisters to be treated in a sexual manner? Wouldn't it have made a lot more sense for them to treat their brother in a manner averse to a typical harem situation? |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23860 |
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Nope. An allegory needs a hidden meaning. That hidden meaning CAN BE a moral or a message of spiritual significance, but it doesn't have to be.
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Kirkdawg
Subscriber Posts: 742 Location: California, USA |
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Hm, OK I'll bite. Nisemonogatari has slightly higher value in my book now thanks to GeminiDS85's persuasive post. I'm a bit curious how this allegory will end...
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Mister V
 Posts: 1000 |
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Hmm, I must say I've mixed feelings about this season so far. On the one hand, it's more of the same Bakemono-level stuff, but, hmm... I do not entirely like the small details that they changed. Lost any interest in Hanekawa, for instance (not to mention - what the hell is that with her supposedly bullying Senjougahara?..). It feels like they've also purposefully exaggerated some elements, like the fanservice, or Senjougahara's sadistic tendencies (although her dere was upped, too, which is always good). I can't honestly say I dislike any of it, but I prefer the way Bakemono handled things.
For example, I kind of see that the fight scene (inluding the dialogue) in this episode was meant to parody all kinds of anime fights, and I would say it's pretty successful, but meh. It feels jarring to see these characters that I like and remember suddenly start flying around destroying bridges and spouting all that usual in-fight nonsense that Japan seems to like so much. Even more so when it's not Araragi versus monster, but spoiler[his sister.] However, the ending of that same scene was pretty good, and the way he trolled them (permanent marker) was fun, too. See? The series leaves me with mixed feelings all the time. Though the second part was quite cool. |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15505 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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Well by episode 7 we have the end of the first arc, and would I call that anti-climactic for a boss fight? But it really did stick to what this series strength is. I think that the main message we were supposed to take away was that sometimes a fake can be just as big as the real thing: spoiler[the firs sisters suposed to being allies of justice, and the Kaiki being a fake, yet so dangerous.] An interesting I noticed was that Kaiki kind of looked like a sterotypical vampire, including fairly large canines. Putting this with the fact that spoiler[Hitagi used to have a crush on Kaiki] could be a little take on the difference between the real thing and a fake between Koyomi and Kaiki.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23860 |
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I will always take it as a small personal tragedy that Shinbo neglected to provide us with a scene of spoiler[the Fire Sisters full-on 69ing each other (which, like, we totally know they do on a daily basis) in what would have been an insane ball of wincesto-pedo-yuri sugary hentai] goodness.
Anyhoo, although it was kind of disappointing to have spoiler[a final boss showdown that was nothing more than a gabfest], it was probably the most apt thing to happen. We already had an spoiler[epic fight earlier in the show.] Still it was a little disappointing not to see spoiler[Hitagi at least slice his eyeball with an exacto-knife or something.] Not nearly as disappointing as not seeing the spoiler[Fire Sisters be Scissor Sisters, though.] |
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Megiddo
Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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Well, considering the Fire Sisters were, for some unknown reason, sleeping next to each-other completely nude, you just might have to wait for the BluRay (or settle for doujinshi) for that 'goodness'
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