Forum - View topicMost Improved Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
|
Goto page Previous Next |
| Author | Message | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
|
|||
I've always been of the mind that the exact title of the tournament was intended as a general indication rather than precise qualifications, and tends to prefer more natural word choice rather than aim for completely accurate. I'm also of the mind that subjective qualifications make for a more interesting tournament, as there's more room for debate on which finer qualities deserve merit rather than a purely subjective decision. The most intelligent tournament was pretty close to straight quantitative comparison, and I think that's generally regarded as the worst one we've had. |
||||
|
||||
Vaisaga
 Posts: 13230 |
|
|||
|
I suppose I'm more used to scientific studies that requires operationally defining terms in order to properly measure abstract ideas.
|
||||
|
||||
The Naked Beast
 Posts: 1028 Location: A Blue Planet |
|
|||
|
I took a nap last time and completely missed the voting. This week, I barely make the deadline.
Group C-1 Renton Thurston, Eureka 7 vs. Sesshomaru, Inuyasha franchise My vote goes to: Renton Thurston. Group C-2 Rikuo Sakisaka, Time of Eve vs. Wakana Sakai, Tari Tari My vote goes to: Rikuo Sakisaka. Group C-3 Yukari “Caroline” Hayasaka, Paradise Kiss vs. Yakumo Fuji, 3x3 Eyes My vote goes to: Yukari “Caroline” Hayasaka. Group C-4 Luke Fon Fabre, Tales of the Abyss vs. Tsubasa Shiina, Figure 17 My vote goes to: Tsubasa Shiina. Group C-5 Wabisuke Jinnouchi, Summer Wars vs. Ami Kawashima, Toradora! I liked how Ami has changed for the better as the series progressed. Her brash side eventually dissolves as she spends more time with the main cast. The bitterness with Taiga is still there but it is not as it was when they first met. She is a great character who watches everything from the side but her presence has great impact in scenes. My vote goes to: Ami Kawashima. Group C-6 Ryuki Shi, The Story of Saiunkoku vs. Watashi (unnamed protagonist), The Tatami Galaxy My vote goes to: Ryuki Shi. Group C-7 Byakuya Kuchiki, Bleach vs. Kiki, Kiki’s Delivery Service My vote goes to: Kiki. Group C-8 Seras Victoria, Hellsing Ultimate vs. Julian Mintz, Legend of the Galactic Heroes My vote goes to: Julian Mintz. |
||||
|
||||
Veers
 Posts: 1197 Location: Texas |
|
|||
As I said in my votepost, Luke is one of the stronger contenders in this round and against most of the other characters in this round I'd be voting for him. I didn't even do the minigame so I don't have a stake in making sure Tsubasa wins this round, I just think the sincerity with which her character improvement is handled is something that can't be discredited, even if she doesn't go as far as Luke in a purely quantitative sense. I kinda think they both deserve to survive this round considering other characters that we started off with, but it is what it is. |
||||
|
||||
|
Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18200 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
|
|||
|
Round 1 Group C is now closed.
With C-1: Sesshomaru went all demonic on Renton, 15-11. C-2: Rikuo Sakisaki outlasted Wakana Sakai, 15-11. C-3: Yukari "Caroline" Hayasaka consigned Yakumo Fujii to the fashion dumpster, 23-3. C-4: Tsubasa Shina held on to edge out Luke Fon Fabre, 14-12. C-5: Ami Kawashima drove Wabisuke Jinnouchi into the ground, 20-6. C-6: Watashi (unnamed protagonist) was too much for Ryuki Shi, 15-11. C-7: Kiki flew away from Byakuya Kuchiki, 23-3. C-8: Seras Victoria went for the throat against Julian Mintz, 15-11. Boy, some of these matches were a lot tighter at the end than they initially looked like they were going to be. C-4 was decided on the last vote (TNB could have tied it), but C-1 and C-2 also tightened up considerably. The most interesting development was watching Seras Victoria flip C-8 from a significant disadvantage to a significant advantage due to a sizable mid-week run. C-3, C-5, and C-7 were never competitive, though. And I will be very curious to see how the minigame results shake out. I missed two (C-1 and C-8, and curiously, I voted against myself in both cases), and I suspect that I will have a lot of company at missing that many or more. Next round is ready to go and should be posted within a few minutes. |
||||
|
||||
|
Key
Moderator
Posts: 18200 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
|
|||
|
Round 1 Group D is now closed.
Results can be found here. The last stage of the preliminary round is now upon us! I have a suspicion that we might see more tight matches here, as fewer of these options seem like mismatches. Also please do note that the linked Guide entry for Yuu Gotou, although it has been rewritten, still unavoidably contains extensive major spoilers for those who haven’t seen/finished Noein. His situation is complicated enough that even describing who all he is in the series (he has more than one identity due to some alternate-dimension/timeline shenanigans), much less explaining how he improves, requires revealing specifics about mysteries that linger until the next-to-last episode. Group D-1 Prince Siddhartha, Buddha: The Great Detective vs. Yuu Gotou, Noein – to your other self Group D-2 Yuuko Kanoe, Dusk Maiden of Amnesia vs. Rei Ayanami, Rebuild of Evangelion movies Group D-3 Porco Rosso, Porco Rosso vs. Renji Abari, Bleach Group D-4 Noriko Takaya, Gunbuster vs. Vegeta, Dragonball Z/Kai Group D-5 Mima Kirgoe, Perfect Blue vs. Suzu, The Twelve Kingdoms Group D-6 Momo Miyaura, A Letter to Momo vs. Mytho, Princess Tutu Group D-7 Saji Crossroad, Mobile Suit Gundam 00 vs. Nanami Kiryuu, Revolutionary Girl Utena Group D-8 Naota Nandaba, FLCL vs. Tsukimi Kurashita, Princess Jellyfish Last edited by Key on Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||
|
||||
|
Key
Moderator
Posts: 18200 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
|
|||
|
I know most of these contestants, and have specific comments that I want to make in a few cases, so I'll vote right away this time:
Group D-1 Prince Siddhartha, Buddha: The Great Detective vs. Yuu Gotou, Noein – to your other self I'm sure a case could be argued for Prince Siddhartha, but Yuu Gotou is a monumental mess of a person in all of his timelines, and the fact that he comes out basically right in the end is a testament to how much he gets his act together. Group D-2 Yuuko Kanoe, Dusk Maiden of Amnesia vs. Rei Ayanami, Rebuild of Evangelion movies Boy, can I redo this part of the bracket and cross this match-up with D-4? Although both of these two have the merits to be in the tournament, neither strikes me as second-round material. Still, since I have to choose I'll take Yuuko Kanoe. Rei is just starting to improve through the end of the second movie, while Yuuko literally spoiler[puts herself back together and becomes a whole person (er, ghost) at peace with what happened to her]. Group D-3 Porco Rosso, Porco Rosso vs. Renji Abari, Bleach Honestly, Renji's improvement isn't all that extensive. Thus I favor Porco Rosso here. Group D-4 Noriko Takaya, Gunbuster vs. Vegeta, Dragonball Z/Kai Wow, would I like to cross this one with D-2, as both of these two are second-round (at least!) material and only one can advance. Vegeta advances from being completely evil and an utter, self-serving ass to actually being semi-heroic and a semi-caring father by the Buu Saga arc, though he does have a significant hiccup along the way involving willfully submitting to Bobidi(?) just to get a chance to confront Goku once more. That hiccup is just enough room to give Noriko a shot here. She goes from being a fearful, insecure, and initially somewhat clumsy girl to one with enough intestinal fortitude to save mankind on more than one occasion in its most desperate hours; the scene in episode 4 where she finally gets her act together and emerges in Gunbuster for the first time is one of the all-time classic anime scenes, one that has been copied on several occasions since (see Stellvia for one of the most blatant tributes). Honestly, though, I could see this one going either way and wouldn't be disappointed either way. Group D-5 Mima Kirigoe, Perfect Blue vs. Suzu, The Twelve Kingdoms Both of these young ladies go through a lot to be where they are at the end, but I think there's a clear choice here. Suzu may be the weakest of the 12K entrants but watching her gradually stop feeling sorry for herself and become a stronger and more capable person is ultimately more satisfying in an improvement sense that watching Mima become a more sane and self-assured actress. Group D-6 Momo Miyaura, A Letter to Momo vs. Mytho, Princess Tutu I would argue that Mytho shouldn't even be here, as his "improvement" is really just a matter of him regaining what he lost by choice and more a pure plot development device than true character development. On the other side, I tracked down and watched A Letter to Momo earlier to day, and man, this would have been one of my Unlicensed Gems for 2012 had I known about in time. Hopefully it'll eventually get licensed, as it has beautiful artistry and animation, solid writing, and a pleasant story that is occasionally gently funny and definitely touching. It may be a bit long at an even 2 hours, but it's well worth your time to check out and Momo certainly shows enough improvement, whether in her courage, her relationship with her mother, or her ability to mix with other kids, to deserve to win here. Group D-7 Saji Crossroad, Mobile Suit Gundam 00 vs. Nanami Kiryuu, Revolutionary Girl Utena This vote for the unknown (to me) Saji Crossroad is more a vote against Nanami, who never impressed me as a character in any way. I didn't find her much less annoying at the end of the series than she was early on. Group D-8 Naota Nandaba, FLCL vs. Tsukimi Kurashita, Princess Jellyfish Does Naota actually improve all that much? Going with the less familiar Tsukimi here because, based on the one episode that I did see and what I've heard other people say about this one, she had much farther to go. |
||||
|
||||
marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
|
|||
^______________________________^ 8/8, my friend! Don't know how I did it and it isn't how I wanted things to go down (particularly in C2) but I will not be complaining. Anyway, I forgot about the laundry I started doing tonight and so have to stay up a bit longer, might as well get some votes in. Group D-1 Prince Siddhartha, Buddha: The Great Depature Because he's Buddha. I could change my mind on this one though. Group D-2 Yuuko Kanoe, Dusk Maiden of Amnesia Discussions about Rei in nominations have made me decide not to vote for her. Group D-3 Renji Abari, Bleach Group D-4 ***VOTE CHANGE*** Vegeta, Dragonball Z/Kai Group D-5 Suzu, The Twelve Kingdoms Group D-6 Mytho, Princess Tutu While I can see the reasons that people are voting against the "blank slate" starting characters, I cannot agree with it at all. Especially in Mytho's part because he ultimately becomes a much more compelling and interesting character by the end of the series. This is one of the criteria listed on the first page:
And sure, there is an argument that he is regaining parts of who he once was and so is more reverting to his former self but I don't think that's entirely true, mainly due to spoiler[Rue's tampering with the final piece of his heart]. At very least, I think he improved dramatically and should without doubt make it to the next round because Mytho absolutely deserves to be here (IMO, more so than Rue). Group D-7 Nanami Kiryuu, Revolutionary Girl Utena Group D-8 Tsukimi Kurashita, Princess Jellyfish FLCL is another series that I cannot stand, though this one is less a result of weak characterization. However, my recent re-watch of Princess Jellyfish to see if Tsukimi should be nominated not only convinced me to do so but also convinces me that she should get to round 2, at very least. Last edited by marie-antoinette on Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:47 pm; edited 2 times in total |
||||
|
||||
|
Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
|
|||
|
So disappoint. Oh well.
Group D-1 Yuu - Actually seen his show and he does grow some balls. I wouldn't lump in his other selves, though, as all 3 are distinct characters. Group D-2 Rei - Rei actually changes over the course of the movies. While Yuuko did face her demons, afterwards she... Was pretty much exactly the same. Perhaps I'd give her more credit had she spoiler[passed on]. Group D-3 Renji - Haven't seen the other but since it's a Ghibli movie that's not Princess Mononoke I imagine it's quite clean. Renji fought through blood, sweat and tears, crawling through the dirt to become the person he is now. Not only does he become more powerful, but he accepts Ichigo and bridges the gap that had opened between him and Rukia. Group D-4 Noriko - Obviously expecting Vegeta to win because DBZ, but Noriko really deserves it more. Believe in the power of HARD WORK AND GUTS! Group D-5 Suzu - Don't know Suzu, but Mima's improvement happened off screen at the very end of the film, so it's pretty weak. I remember the interview with her dub actress on the DVD saying how Mima totally sold out, so that's points against her too. Group D-6 Momo - Don't know either but if Key says Mytho doesn't belong here, who am I to argue? Group D-7 Saji - Boy did I hate this spineless twerp at first. He had a hot girlfriend but he did absolutely nothing to deserve her. He'd just stand there like an idiot while her mom tried to take her away. In the second season he was just as big a screw up but he got better. By the end of the season he was fighting for his woman and that's all I ever wanted him to do. Then in the movie he fights off ELS Ribbons and when they need help on the Space Elevator during the battle against the ELS, Saji was quick to volunteer. He didn't become King Arthur, but that'll do Crossroad. That'll do. Group D-8 Tsukimi - Haven't seen it but I don't have any particularly strong feelings towards Naota. Plus, she's cuter. |
||||
|
||||
Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3883 Location: New York state. |
|
|||
|
Damn, I'm gonna be hurting in my mini-game the next few rounds now with Julian's loss. Guess I overestimated the forum love for LoGH for this tournament.
At any rate, let's get to voting: Match D-1: Prince Siddhartha (Buddha: The Great Departure) Match D-2: Yuuko Kanoe (Dust Maiden of Amnesia) More of a vote against Rei since I felt she didn't change too much as of yet in the Rebuild films I've seen thus far. Match D-3: Porco Rosso (Porco Rosso) Renji's case isn't too much different from Byakuya's from the "shounen anime lead lecture" he also got from Ichigo. So Porco gets my vote here. Match D-4: Vegeta (Dragon Ball franchise) Match D-5: Suzu (Twelve Kingdoms) Match D-6: Momo Miyaura (A Letter to Momo) Mytho has to be the weakest entrant from Princess Tutu involved in this tournament considering he mostly serves as nothing more than a goal for Duck/ Tutu to go through her ordeals and a tool for the baddies in the later half of the show. Like Key, I didn't get a chance to see A Letter to Momo until just a few weeks ago when applicants for the tourney were already decided. From what I've seen of the movie, I feel Momo's improvements are touching and natural enough where I can vote for her here. Match D-7: Saji Crossroad (Gundam 00) From what I remembered of my watch of Utena years ago, I never recalled Nanami developing differently in anyway with her bratty persona and possessive interest in brother Touga. So, I guess I get to vote for one of my nominees in the form of Saji. Match D-8: Naota Nandaba (FLCL) Time to answer a question:
I'd say yes and I probably should have made things more clearer when I did my nominee description of Naota. Considering FLCL is all about "growing up" beneath all its craziness, the anime is basically all about Naota coming to terms with approaching adolescence and doing things for himself as he is trying to figure out what it means to be an adult. At the very least, I find his developments more compelling than Tsukimi's as it seemed like she was mostly being dragged around by Kuranosuke throughout her show's run and didn't seem to change all that much. Naota starts off feeling like he has no escape from the dull everyday life he lives in Mabase as he feels like he is in his brother's shadow and putting up with the unwanted advances of his brother's ex-girlfriend Mamimi. The feelings Naota has for his brother Tasuku are complicated where while he admires him in seeing him as the ideal adult, he hates him for leaving Mabase and having his identity be known as just being Tasuku's kid brother. The presence of Haruko in his life leads Naota to realize there is more to life than what preconceptions he had, which starts off the series of experiences he undergoes throughout FLCL's run. He comes to feel genuine concern and love for Mamimi despite his earlier indifference as he goes after her for situations that occurred in the first two episodes of the series, learning to stand up for himself as he deals with Ninamori in the third episode, develops the desire to break free from his brother's shadow by trying to take up baseball in the fourth episode alongside spoiler[becoming local hero after saving Mabase from a falling satellite] and comes to realize spoiler[that his feelings for Mamimi are unrequited and his own feelings for Haruko] in the final two episodes of the series. These experiences are all part of growing life normally (save for the over the top moments) and serve to provide Naota the understanding he needs to move on with his life into adolescence as his life became fulfilled by that point. |
||||
|
||||
|
dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
|
|||
Sorry, but the "hiccup" as you call it just makes his eventual complete redemption all the more stronger. He comes back from it in an epic way, and opens up to his son for the first time, learns that his actions will have dire consequences before actually sacrificing himself against Buu. More scenes: Then there was the time he went crazy when Trunks died after months of pretending he didn't care for him. He actually went so far as to rate getting revenge for his son to be more important than restoring his own pride, which if you know Vegeta is a massive moment for him. Oh, and he was so devastated by Goku's death that he questioned whether he could even be a warrior again. Vegeta cries. Vegeta admits Goku is stronger (skip to four minutes for the good part). I might up more clips later if I remember some more good ones. Last edited by dtm42 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:26 pm; edited 2 times in total |
||||
|
||||
st_owly
 Posts: 5234 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland |
|
|||
|
D1 - Voting for Yuu Gotou
D2 - Voting for Yuuko D3 - Voting for Porco Rosso I didn't think Renji improved that much when I read/watched Bleach. D4 - Voting for Noriko D5 - Voting for Suzu Her improvement seems much greater. D6 - Voting for Momo As Key said, Mytho seems merely to regain what he once had, rather than improving. D7 - Voting for Saji D8 - Voting for Tsukimi |
||||
|
||||
|
Crisha
Moderator
 Posts: 4290 |
|
|||
|
Since I missed out on the previous two rounds on account of forgetting about them, I'm just gonna go ahead and vote.
Group D-1 Prince Siddhartha, Buddha: The Great Detective vs. Yuu Gotou, Noein – to your other self Yuu definitely. In fact, the series is largely about his development. He's an emo, angry child at the beginning, complaining about his life being such a pain because he's always under the thumb of his mom. He often plays with a retractable knife, giving off the impression that he's a few short steps away from either hurting himself or someone else. During the first episode, after being caught hanging out with friends when he should be studying, he screams at his mom and jumps out of the car in order to get away and begs his best friend to run away with him. Over the course of the show, he slowly builds up self-confidence, deciding that his studies are important to him (a sore point initially because of how much pressure his mom put on him), and confronts his mom about what he desires in a rational matter without all of the pent-up rage he had at the beginning. By the end of the show, he has confronted his own personal demons, both literally (which is part of one of the bigger spoilers in the series) and figuratively, and walks away a mature individual at peace with himself who knows what he wants and is willing to fight for it even at the risk of his own life. He makes a dramatic evolution from a cowering child to a brave young man. Group D-2 Yuuko Kanoe, Dusk Maiden of Amnesia vs. Rei Ayanami, Rebuild of Evangelion movies I've seen Amnesia, which I wasn't all that impressed by, and I don't really consider Yuuko going through much improvement. And I have yet to complete any form of Evangelion, though I've read up on the story and I'm aware of what goes on in the movies. So this one is a coin toss. Rei Ayanami. Group D-3 Porco Rosso, Porco Rosso vs. Renji Abari, Bleach Porco Rosso. There was discussion going on in Justin's first "Pile of Shame" thread about having the readers complete something from their own "Pile of Shame" stack before his next column. And this movie was mine. I just watched it over the weekend, and it is clearly about the redemption of Porco. As he (and others) state many times throughout the movie, he's a pig. Though the meaning is quite literal, when he states it about himself it's more in relation to his personality. Porco considers himself a pig, and therefore he is a pig. The movie works with a lot of fairy tale logic that many of Miyazaki's movies do where fantastic things like this are just accepted by society (though no one is truly aware of what actually turned Porco into a pig). Over the course of the movie, we find out that he's the only survivor of an airplane fight during the war that killed his close friend and husband to the woman he loved (at that point he still looked human). At some point between then and the beginning of the movie he has transformed into a pig. At his first introduction, we see that he's cynical and selfish, fighting against pirates and rescuing people only for a paycheck. He's also sexist, disgruntled over letting a bunch of women handle and repair his plane after it gets damaged. One young girl, though, is able to slowly worm her way into his heart, and we see him gradually open himself up to her (at one point, half asleep, she thinks he has the face of a man before she fully wakes up). By the end of the movie, he's willing to fight tooth and nail for her honor. After a kiss on his lips from her as a thank you, his rival takes a look at him and exclaims, "Your face!" The movie never outright explains his reason for changing into a pig and never shows whether or not he changes back into a man, but the implications are strong on both. Group D-4 Noriko Takaya, Gunbuster vs. Vegeta, Dragonball Z/Kai Vegeta. Group D-5 Mima Kirgoe, Perfect Blue vs. Suzu, The Twelve Kingdoms I agree with Key's write up and vote for Suzu. Group D-6 Momo Miyaura, A Letter to Momo vs. Mytho, Princess Tutu This is more a vote against Mytho since I haven't yet seen A Letter to Momo (though Key's write-up has convinced me to vote for Momo). There's nothing in the rules that specifically states that the character takes an active role in his/her improvement, but that's a key factor in my votes. Does Mytho change during the course of the show? Yes, from a blank slate back to a Prince. But very little of it is his own doing beyond asking Princess Tutu to gather his heart shards for him. Of all of the Princess Tutu nominations, I think he is the weakest contender. Group D-7 Saji Crossroad, Mobile Suit Gundam 00 vs. Nanami Kiryuu, Revolutionary Girl Utena Saji. Group D-8 Naota Nandaba, FLCL vs. Tsukimi Kurashita, Princess Jellyfish Tsukimi. Last edited by Crisha on Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||
|
||||
zawa113
 Posts: 7358 |
|
|||
|
D-1 Yuu Goto Man, this is a toughie. And once again, my manga knowledge has come full circle to bite me in the rear (it seems to screw me over an awful lot in these tourneys, usually by knowing things I shouldn't). I've read the Buddha manga, twice in fact (because it is fantastic). I've also seen Noein (more than once as I really enjoyed it). So, Siddhartha really does go through a lot in Buddha, over the course of 7 thick volumes (I say 7 because he's only just born at the end of vol 1), we follow pretty well his entire life. And his changes are ones that make you say "I want to improve my life". But a ton of stuff happens, and there is a 2 hour movie. About 2100 pages of manga vs a 2 hour movie? I don't see how it would be possible for that much of Siddhartha's journey to really make it into that time span. But Siddhartha always seemed to be a good person, he didn't ever seem quite the complete mess that Yuu did. Siddhartha was born into royalty, it's not like he was the slave class, and he wasn't a huge jerk about being the royalty class either, he was always pretty nice for the most part. And a lot of his changes were realizing that maybe some of the ways people meditate to attain enlightenment were, frankly, pretty crazy (he tries quite a few himself, from pain to starvation). So while Buddha's is an incredible journey (in the manga at least), I feel like Yuu goes from being a borderline basket case to someone who really will be useful to Haruka and society in general. I think it's hard to dismiss the other timelines though, as they are all possible futures and potential Yuus. But I think the him at the start of the series might've turned into a villain while the him at the end would turn into a hero when he grew up. He is forced to become more mature slowly but surely, and I also like how it has an affect on his mother. Actually the ending spoiler[is achieved by Yuu refusing to ever become something as reprehensible as Noein, the villain I was alluding to before that I think the him at the start could very well have become], a shame in some ways as he wouldn't ever be voiced by Richard Epcar.
D-2 Yuuko Kanoe D-3 Porco Rosso I don't recall Renji improving much either D-4 Vegeta D-5 Suzu D-6 Mytho I do think it's easy to say that it was just him getting his heart back, and for the first half, that's true. But the second half, he really does need to overcome himself in order to become better and I don't think his end result is exactly what he was before, I think he's a bit braver. Still the weakest PT candidate, sure, but I'm finding it impossible to vote against him. D-7 Saji I honestly recall Nanami being just as annoying at the end as at the start D-8 Tsukimi |
||||
|
||||
|
Key
Moderator
Posts: 18200 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
|
|||
Oh, I don't disagree with you here, and that's why this was the most difficult pick for me in this Group - maybe in the whole first round, in fact. I would be happiest if this one ended in a tie, as both characters should advance. Last edited by Key on Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||
|
||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group